Practice Management Member Conversations

 View Only
Expand all | Collapse all

Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

  • 1.  Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-09-2012 12:09 PM

    I'd like to solicit your opinion on a practice question regarding the architect's provisions of material take-offs.
    For liability purposes, our office has historically not provided quantity take-offs to contractors, and we've held to this even with the integration of BIM software. However, we're currently being confronted by a multi-family contractor stating that, as part of the team's collaboration, it is our role to provide, in this particular case, the quantity of windows by type and by noting the square footage of each unit and total sf for all the units, including commercial storefronts.
    Further, it is being asserted that our practice of not providing such information is out of sync with other architects providing multi-family design services.
    I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments as to how your companies handle such requests.



    -------------------------------------------
    Richard Wagner FAIA
    Baylis Architects
    Bellevue WA
    -------------------------------------------
    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 2.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 05:37 AM

    While the architect's schedule of services in Germany includes the taking off of quantities, we as project managers and owners' reps always advise that the contractor do the take-offs and be responsible for them. In the event that you cannot get around it, then I would advise that you have the contractor countersign your take-offs and certify their correctness. In the other event, call your insurer. 
    -------------------------------------------
    Karl Hartnack AIA
    Component Past President
    Hartnack Architecture
    Duesseldorf

    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 3.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-13-2012 01:28 PM
    I noticed no one mentioned Door& Window Schedules. Is that not a quantity take off in some respects?
    I know we are all paranoid about getting sued but I believe as architects we should not be withdrawing from the process by being afraid of liability but find ways to strengthen our role. Maybe there is an estimated take-off that is done for early budget analysis for the owner that is clearly labeled as such "For Estimate Only not for use by Contractor" or some SUCH disclaimer. Lord knows we have plenty of disclaimers already.
    But to categorically refuse to "help" in this situation doesn't seem very customer service oriented and that is a criticism I hear about our profession as much or more than any.

    -------------------------------------------
    S. Jones AIA
    Owner
    S Berry Jones - Architects
    Memphis TN
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 4.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-13-2012 07:24 PM
    Mr Koppy and I seem to be the only contrarians in this thread.

    I am just amazed that us architects, who are the creators of the quantities on our drawings, and who use highly-advanced software to delineate those quantities, would then say to the construction industry:  "Please do manual take-offs of the quantities on our drawings because I don't want to be responsible for telling you what I have designed and what my sophisticated software tells me my design delineates."  Really ??

    Have architects so completely lost sight of the Goal, which is to create good buildings, on time and on budget  ? Which is what makes clients happy and makes people WANT architects ?  Or is the Goal to create architecture firm revenues that have no liability attached  ?  Is the latter Goal the thing that we all spent many years and $$s training for ?

    To quote Mr Koppy's very apt remark:

    "Let's stop as a profession being afraid of liability and begin to take back our name of arch+tect (master+builder)."

    BIM has now given us this opportunity again  (we lost it in the 80's for the same liability reasons, because we refused to take on Construction Management), but it won't be long before the Building Industry says:  "Architects are too afraid to give us quantities, so let's hire our own BIM jockeys, build our own 3D models, and we can then limit architectural services to Schematic Design.  We will take over from there.  Limit them to pretty drawings only.

    The death of the architecture firm by a thousand digital paper-cuts.


    -------------------------------------------
    William Adelson AIA
    Solar Projects
    West Coast Iron, Inc.
    Ramona CA
    -------------------------------------------

     

    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 5.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-14-2012 01:34 PM
    Suggest you check out the Rules of Measurement of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors (UK) that set forth the standards and procedures for measuring construction works. There is to my knowledge nothing similar in the US construction industry and until there is, conflicts will undoubtedly arise.

    The architecture profession is considerably more than crunching numbers for a bill of quantities.   

    -------------------------------------------
    Karl Hartnack AIA
    Component Past President
    Hartnack Architecture
    Duesseldorf

    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 6.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 09:31 AM
    The reason you give, the number and type of the windows, makes me wonder if the architect cannot say with certainty what size, type and location of the windows in a project is, who can? There may be other examples of quantities that could be troublesome, but windows should not be one of them.

    If you are required to provide your client with an estimate, then there has to be some amount of take-off done to accurately do so. If so, with caveats as to the use of this information proffered, it would seem that this could be done in the case you cite.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Barley II FAIA
    Managing Partner
    The Barley Consulting Group LLP
    Jacksonville FL
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 7.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 11:29 AM
    We do not do a lot of multi-family.
    That said,  however, I agree that material take-offs have not, nor should be, part of our role.


    -------------------------------------------
    Betty Trent AIA
    Architecture Plus
    Austin TX
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 8.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 11:47 AM
    Hi Richard,

    The request does not appear to be that extreme,  count the number of windows and call it an estimate  and call it a day.  With cadd or BIM  the square footage is pretty easy to capture. 

    What does your contract say , You both signed it and if this is a " firm stadard not to provide it must be clearly written into the contract which should reflect the expectations of both parties.

    If your insurance provider will not allow you to do any of this then spell it out or get extra money from the builder to cover the added premium. In our contracts they are called probable cost estimates.  Material takeoff  can be that , estimates  which can be basic services.  If its additional services then its additional services.


    You may need to adjust your basic services if this is something that the market is providing .  I looked at your website and from the number of multi-family projects Baylis Architects  is not a first timer in the market. 

    Good luck and nice work
    David


    -------------------------------------------
    David DeFilippo AIA
    Tsoi/Kobus Associates; Cambridge, MA
    Milton MA
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 9.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 11:55 AM
    I have done multi-family projects in the past and have not encountered a requirement to do quantity take-offs.  My first impression is that this gets into means and methods which is the contracator's responsibility.  For window units, the window schedule would indicate model number and the size, which is all the contractor. For storefront, this would get into means and methods since you do not know how he is going to construct it and how much waste there will be in installing the system.

    Sounds like the contractor is asking you to do his work.  Just because you are using BIM does not mean that you are responsible for his work.  The contractors that I know who use the architect's BIM model actually build on or re-do the BIM model in evaluating how they will construct the project and to determine their quanities.

    More importantly what are your contractual obligations.  This should be spelled on in your contract and your BIM protocol agreement AIA E202-2008 exhibit to your contract.  If you have not done that then you will have to negotiate how you proceed from here. 

    Professionally, I would not want to be responsible for any of the contractor's quantities, much less his means and methods of construction, since I have not control over how he will construct the building.

    -------------------------------------------
    Peter Leoschke AIA
    Mead & Hunt Inc
    Madison WI
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 10.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 12:47 PM
    From Past Experience I can certainly say that this will lead you down a very dangerous path, unless you are wanting to buy some windows when the project falls short or you want to buy some windows for your garden shed when the project ends up with a surplus. 

    Once you start with windows it will lead to "how many yards of carpet?", "how many of each type of brick?", "how many linear feet of each profile of running trim".

    A definate NO now will save you a lot of future headaches.  It has never been the Architects responsibility to determine quantity take-offs so don't let them push you into thinking it is.

    Once the Contractors expect it the Owner will start calling and expect it as well.

    -------------------------------------------
    David Cameron AIA
    Architect
    Cameron Aslaksen Architects, LLC
    Reedsburg WI
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 11.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 02:25 PM
    Richard,

    Why are we so afraid to give contractors information readily available at our fingertips?

    Five years ago, I was leading a team of architects using BIM for a very large multi-family project being estimated by a negotiated-bid contractor.  During a telephone conversation, the contractor's project manager mentioned off-handedly the quantity of the windows for the project at 1068 units.  While talking with him I scribbled a note to our project architect to provide a quanity takeoff of the windows.  Before the conversation ended I had the information: 1072 units, broken down by size and type, and informed him of the difference in total number. 
    He stated that couldn't be correct as his estimator is the best he has ever worked with.  I suggested we compare takeoffs, starting with the number of 4 x 6 foot double-hung units.  He stated his estimator considers them all 4 x 6 units for the sake of estimating!  I sent him the list of the units, which he used to bid out to suppliers and help bring the project in under budget!
    (The four window difference: His estimator was using building elevations on construction drawings for his takeoff.  We did not provide elevation of 4 windows in a breezeway.  They were called out in plan only. The model though knows all such items)
    Now there are some quantities such as square feet of gypsum board, roofing, paint, etc that have waste, modeling error, and other concerns that make estimating much less accurate.  But if BIMformation is power, let's stop as a profession being afraid of liability and begin to take back our name of arch+tect (master+builder).

    -------------------------------------------
    Donald Koppy AIA
    Crestwood MO
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 12.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 02:31 PM
    Unless you have a design + build or IPD agreement with the contractor that requires you to do quantity take-offs and that holds you harmless, defends you and indemnifies you against damages resulting from the quantity-take-off, the contractor is merely bullying, either to shift responsibility or the time burden of preparing a bid. Unless one of those agreements is in place, I would ask the contractor to sign an agreement listing your fee for the service and protecting you from liability before providing this service.

    However, a window schedule is part of an architect's standard services in the areas where I practice. A complete bill of materials is not.

    -------------------------------------------
    Sean Catherall AIA
    Integrated Property Services
    Bluffdale UT
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 13.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 10:13 PM
    Not meaning to be glib, but were you contracted for construction procurement services?  If not it seems like an additional service.  Except you might want to check with your insurance agent as to whether they will cover you for the added liability.  My sense is, you will end-up taking on much more liability than a window count.
    It would be great to have total control of the building process.  I think we could provide customers with a truly high quality service at great value, but that is probably not the way your project is set up.  My experience is, the contractor has the job of determining quantities and finished dimensions. It is why they are getting a much higher fee.  I understand, our estimates are to be for design-scope verification, not for construction.

    -------------------------------------------
    Roger Retzlaff AIA
    Green Bay WI
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 14.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-13-2012 12:43 PM
    I have lurked for several days and must say I am mystified by many of the posts.  As Architects, how can you prepare CD's without knowing the number, type and nominal  size of all glazed units/walls?  In this age of energy-consumption awareness do you not calculate the amount of glazing?  In California (and I suspect elsewhere) submission of energy calculations including all this and other information is part of the entitlement process.  Green, LEED and other programs make it necessary to have this information 'in the can'.  Knowing this information as a basic part of the project data is without doubt an essential element of the standard of care for designers in the current era.

    Any set of CD's for a project that is not in the 'smallest' category also contains a window and glazing schedule that would contain the same information being described in the original post.  Thus the query was only for information that the Architect is already required to have at hand.  It did not say the Architect was being asked to provide specific field-level dimensional and/or other shop-drawing or submittal information that would correctly be provided by the contractor during the construction  process.  A copy of the window schedule, or other spreadsheet, with nominal sizes and quantities, would seem to directly respond to the query.

    In the same time frame that I am receiving missives about how the Architectural profession can re-invent itself or improve its image, I also see increasingly disparate lines of thought amongst Architects (and other professionals).  First, that the Architect should return to his/her elevated position as the 'master' of the design and construction industry.  Second, that the Architect should seek to avoid responsibility whenever possible, and should avoid doing anything beyond the bare minimum - all as a risk avoidance strategy. 

    If Architects want to return to a position of authority, they must also be willing to accept the concurrent high level of responsibility that befits their profession. 

    In the immediate case, I find it astounding that an Architect would not readily respond to a query about how many windows, etc. are in the project.  Doing so does not create any 'new' liability, nor does it entail 'extra work'.  Arguably it took longer to 'discuss' the query than it would to simply forward the data.

    Per the original post, the information sought is 'basic' and MUST already be known by the designer that is performing its work at a professional level.  If the Architect does not already have that information readily at hand it would seem at first blush that the firm is falling behind the standard of the industry - no less rising above that median.  Certainly if I were in the Owner's shoes and asked my Architect how many windows were in the project I would expect an immediate and correct accounting.

    I am not suggesting that an Architect should perform any function that will ultimately be required of the contractor, nor does it appear the original post touches on anything of this nature. 

    In fact, I am trying to sort through the various comments and understand why any design firm would be resistant to providing this limited information that would further the Owner/Client's ultimate objective - moving forward toward construction in the most expeditious fashion, and sharing data that will help ensure everyone is on the same page.  This in no way relieves the contractor of its duties, contractual obligations or liabilities as based on the final CD's (including specifications) that are incorporated into its contract for the Work.

    Why are Architects so desirous of being elevated to the proverbial  pedestal, but fearful of undergoing scrutiny of their work - i.e. providing anything they perceive could 'pin them down' as to the accuracy or appropriateness of the design documents they are responsible for?  Has the in-office level of knowledge, diligence and accuracy in preparing designs and CD's stricken our confidence so low that the mere prospect of litigation now rules all?

    -------------------------------------------
    Howard Littman AIA
    Forensic Architect, Expert Witness
    Howard I. Littman, AIA
    Agoura Hills CA
    -------------------------------------------




    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 15.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-14-2012 10:14 AM
    Please add my name to the list of contrarians. 
    We, as architects,  must find ways to enhance our value to society, not diminish it. Thank you Mr. Koppy and Mr. Adelson for your words.
    -------------------------------------------
    Douglas Elting AIA
    Visions in Architecture
    Lincoln NE
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.


  • 16.  RE:Quantity Take-Offs by the Architect

    Posted 08-14-2012 12:50 PM
    I received a 'private' email a short time ago re this topic.  It again referred to both 'estimating' and 'costs'.  To reiterate my earlier point, I see nothing in the original post that referred to either of these - it referred only to providing quantities/types of windows for a multi-family project.  I do not see providing that type of information as dangerous, and certainly not as an extra service.  If I were in the Owner's shoes and my Architect tried to ask for more money to tell me how many windows were in the project I'd be looking for a new designer before that sentence was completed.  

    It is literally impossible for a designer to do his/her work properly without knowing that information.  This is the very definition of a basic service.  If the designer does not already know and understand this information, intimately, something is wrong - very wrong. 

    Provide the quantity/type information and let the contractor do the estimating.  No extra work, no conflict, no liability beyond what you are already committed to. 

    Demonstrate to your client what you claimed you were when you pitched the job - an ultimate professional that will always act in the Client's best interests.  What a Client wants is someone that will step up and do his/her job without nickel-and-diming.  That is probably what you said you would do if selected.  If your initial fee is not high enough to cover the few minutes it takes to transmit the data to the Client (or its contractor that is going to bid the job), then you have far more significant issues to resolve. 

    Be a pro, step up to the plate, and your Client will come back to you for the 'next one'.  Consider the few minutes as a marketing cost.  You will save time/money bottom line because you will not have to struggle to find 'new' clients to replace the ones that were not happy with your service the first time around.

    -------------------------------------------
    Howard Littman AIA
    Forensic Architect, Expert Witness
    Howard I. Littman, AIA
    Agoura Hills CA
    -------------------------------------------




    AIA Business Academy: A high-impact, four-part intensive program starting June 9. Earn 22.75 LUs. Click here to learn more.