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Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

  • 1.  Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-21-2012 12:19 PM
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Young Architects Forum and Practice Management Member Conversations .
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    This was posted on Garrett Miles's blog on AIA KnowledgeNet. I wanted to share and get your feedback. The original post can be seen here: Hourly vs. Salary

    What is the conventional wisdom regarding whether an employee should be salaried, or paid hourly?  Most firms I'm aware of start new interns with an hourly wage, then transition to salary as soon as they're bumped to the next tier on the org-chart.  

    What is the policy at your firm? 

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    Ann Harris
    The American Institute of Architects
    Washington, DC
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  • 2.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-21-2012 12:47 PM
    Every architect who graduates should be paid as the professional they are, with a salary. Just my humble opinion and 20+ experience across a few firms.  Firms seem to handle 'overtime' pay differently; the most common method is with Comp Time. Respect given is Respect repaid!  Please don't burn out your employees regardless of pay level.

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    Kristine Young AIA
    2 Young Architects
    Tarpon Springs FL

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  • 3.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 09:58 AM
    kristine - 
    well put, especially "Respect given is Respect repaid." my opinion is similar to yours, except that i would reiterate that whatever choice a firm makes regarding how interns are compensated, management needs to clearly communicate their expectations when it comes to overtime, etc. this applies to salaried (exempt) employees, as well, who may often not fully understand their status as "exempt." 

    even though an intern needs to take charge of their own professional development, i think it is still the firm's (holistically) responsibility to provide guidance for them. 

    cheers.
    kurt



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    Kurt Thompson ' @askmyarchitect
    AIA ' MBA ' LEED AP BD+C
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  • 4.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 10:39 AM
    You need to check the state labor laws which are usually a bit ambiguous.

    Most laws require the individual to be working and making decisions independently for them to be considered a salaried employee. It is dangerous and probably illlegal to compensate interns with a salary. I am aware of instances where employees have brought suit in Colorado and won back pay for all overtime that they have recorded.


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    John Kudrycki AIA
    Fentress Architects
    Denver CO
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  • 5.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 11:44 AM
    Lately (last 2 years) we have added staff with temps (recommended by staff, not from an agency) for 3 or so months. If the work load holds and we like him or her we bring them on as salaried. We have not hired an "intern" or graduate for some time but when we did they were salaried upon start.

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    Leslie Sydnor AIA
    Director Of Studios, Associate Principal
    NAC'Architecture
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 6.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 12:01 PM
    Most jobs are governed by the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA); which sets out the basis for classifying employees (including non-exempt vs. exempt). Link to more information: (http://www.dol.gov/whd/flsa/). ------------------------------------------- Nancy Payne Executive Director AIA Delaware Wilmington, DE -------------------------------------------
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  • 7.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 02:54 PM


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    Arthur Kjos AIA
    Clark/Kjos Architects, LLC
    Portland OR
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    Labor laws differ from state to state.  Oregon has stricter definitions of a professional.  To ensure compliance we keep all interns as hourly employees until A. they are registered as a professional, B. they are moved into a management role.

    I would consult a labor attorney to avoid any problems.  If found to non compliant an office may face payment at defined rates (OT etc) to present and past employees.





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  • 8.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 05:36 PM
    With due respect to the prior poster, newly-minted graduates cannot be painted with a broad brush as being 'professionals'.  That is a distinction that one earns over time, based on development of skills and experience far beyond the comprehension of most young practitioners.  It is truly rare to find a recent graduate that could even begin to approach a level of 'professional' performance and the necessary related comprehension of the Architect's role as a practitioner.

    While I believe in treating diligent employees in a 'more than fair' fashion, I think it is a disservice to call novices 'professionals'.  This seems to be a product of a cultural shift in which relative youngsters feel 'entitled' to deference despite having little or no practical experience in their fields (something not limited to architects with a little 'a').  In reality, the first few years in the office environmen - with exceptions -  can only be considered apprentice-level work.  Humility and perspective are qualities that have dearly suffered (and in some cases been lost entirely) by recent generations of graduates only just launched into their respective fields.


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    Howard Littman AIA
    Forensic Architect, Expert Witness
    Howard I. Littman, AIA
    Agoura Hills CA
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  • 9.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 08:12 AM
    make sure your payment structure is in line with federal and state guidelines. 

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    Kerry Hogue AIA
    HKS, Inc.
    Dallas TX
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  • 10.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 08:31 AM
    In my opinion this is really a straightforward issue based on the FSLA. As extracted from a privately maintained FSLA (Fair Standards Labor Act web page: www.fsla.com)

    The Regulatory definition provides that exempt administrative job duties are

    (a) office or nonmanual work, which is
    (b) directly related to management or general business operations of the employer or the employer's customers, and
    (c) a primary component of which involves the exercise of independent judgment and discretion about
    (d) matters of significance.

    An intern with an NAAB accredited degree is hired because they have been educated to exercise judgement in their day to day tasks. They need supervision but are expected to be problem solvers and offer solutions. If the individual is strictly a draftsperson that takes complete direction from others (only picks up red-lines) I would argue they are non-exempt but with a professional degree they leave school and are hired as exempt. I have heard HR personnel argue the opposite but that is because they often don't understand the expectations and requirements we, as professionals, make of our interns (liscensure track).

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    David Barkin AIA
    Principal
    JCJ Architecture
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  • 11.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 09:14 AM
    You really should be careful here.

    Many firms seek to convert interns to salaried positions in order to avoid paying overtime.  The question of when interns become "exempt" suggests that drives the inquiry here.  The Fair Labor Standards Act ("FLSA") gives you the answer . . . . sort of. 

    The answer is that whether an employee is exempt from the requirement that the employer pay overtime depends on the employees' duties.  Under the FLSA, a salaried employee is only exempt from collecting overtime pay if that employee also performs certain specific kinds of duties. Some salaried employees, however, do not perform these duties and are thus still entitled to overtime pay even though they are technically "salaried".  In that instance, overtime is calculated by dividing the base "salary" by 40 to give an hourly rate.  That hourly rate becomes the basis for overtime pay calculations at time and half for everything over the base 40 hour week.

    Generally speaking, whether an employee is exempt depends on whether that employee performs what are called "discretionary" functions.  To qualify, an employee must be given the discretion to complete tasks which are not generally subject to review and modification by others.  If you trust an intern to perform design work, write specifications, etc. and you issue that work to clients without it being subject to review and revision by senior staff, then the intern may be performing a discretionary function.  In my opinion, few if any architectural interns will qualify. 

    There are many instances where large firms made a practice of paying all employees a salary - even those new from school.  Most didn't pay overtime, and the few that did paid it at the base hourly rate instead of time and a half as the law required.  In a few of those cases the firms were eventually subject to legal action and were required to pay  back overtime pay.  In addition, the FLSA includes a punitive component.  An employer found to be violating the act by not paying appropriate overtime is required to pay an amount equal to double the amount that should have been paid but wasn't.  Where a firm had that practice for a number of years and had a large number of employees, that sum could be staggering.

    The best advice is to get competent legal advice from an attorney familiar with this area of the law in your locale as this question is governed by federal law, and not by a policy a firm may choose to develop, or by what other firms may or may not do.




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    Frederick Butters FAIA, Esq.
    Attorney
    AIA Detroit
    Southfield MI
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  • 12.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 09:29 AM

    Across four different firms over 40 years the policy has been the same.  Including a top 20 firm with offices across the US.  Interns directly out of school were paid hourly.  They cannot under the definition most states practice act exercise independent judgement which is part of the definition of a professional.  
    When they went to salary varied and bounced around inside firms.  When they are registered to when they are eligible to take the exams.  One top 20 firm used to give them a minor management duty then refer to them as management.  
    Hardest part to deal with at the top 20 was putting them on salary and cutting their gross pay.  They had been working a minimum of 70 works a week so they were being paid fairly well.  Salary was based on a minimum of 48 hours a week so even with a good raise gross pay fell.  Afterwards they realized if you wanted to move up or get assigned to the better projects you have better work at least 60 hours and at the crunch 80 hours.
    Fairest system that I have worked under was at a small firm where after the internship you went on salary based on 44 hours a week, during normal flow of work you kept rough track of the hours so you averaged out to 44 hours.  When the office got busy you were paid hourly for time beyond 44 hours.  That way you were paid for your time,  the firm did not receive free time while allowing the firm to cover peaks without hiring.  Problem came when the economy slows down and there is not 44 hours of work to do - cut pay or cut staff because the firm was not able to stash aside money.  Plus there were the rotten eggs who claimed 44 hours during slow weeks when there was not work and wanting extra pay the following week when there was work. 

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    Robert Carlson AIA
    Principal
    Carlson Design Team PC
    Iowa City IA
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  • 13.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 10:04 AM
    Federal and state labor laws are quite clear on this subject and have little or nothing to do with aspiring to or being professional, except of course when one is licensed to be a professional and is employed in that capacity.
    In the vast majority of cases an intern/recent graduate must be paid hourly. You cannot  change that by just changing their job title. DOL has at least seven tests to be used in making the determination of exempt (salaried) status. Primary among them are, is the employee working independently? and,  is he/she supervising the work of others.
    I suggest you consult your local, state or federal labor departmet office, your accountant or legal counsel for their advice.

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    Thomas Zimmerman FAIA
    Architect/Consultant
    Z 2 Architecture, PLLC
    Canandaigua NY -------------------------------------------






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  • 14.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 12:06 PM
    In most states, licensed architects are exempt from state labor laws, including such provisions as requirements for overtime pay. So, in the firms in which I have worked, the transition from wages to salary and from unlicensed to licensed often occur at the same time. This rewards "interns" with extra pay for the overtime work that they are sometimes required to do and rewards those who obtain their license with a different pay scale.

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    Sean Catherall, AIA
    Herriman UT
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  • 15.  RE:Hourly vs. Salary... at what point should "interns" become exempt?

    Posted 05-22-2012 05:38 PM
    We pay most of our staff on a salary basis. However the federal tests for determining whether an employee is 'non-exempt' or 'exempt' are very clear; these rules goven the need to pay overtime or not, among other issues.

    The label you apply is irrelevant.
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    Richard Speicher AIA
    Principal
    Weber Murphy Fox
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