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What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

  • 1.  What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-06-2011 04:19 PM
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Committee on Architecture for Education and Young Architects Forum .
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    I have a huge dilemma to discuss - Whether or not to get my Masters in Architecture (first professional) or continue to work at my new job in these hard times. I have been accepted into several programs but they require me to put in more money through student loans as well as change my location. I have thought about the pros and cons and they are about even.

    My question - is a Masters in Architecture (First Professional) worth the investment in the building industry? I live in California and according to their rules, I can get license without my professional degree. I just need 4 years of work experience (which I do have) before I can begin taking the AREs.

    How many design/building professionals out there have their masters in architecture and does it make a huge difference in their lives (income, titles, status, etc)? Never mind getting license as an Architect. What are your thoughts and opinions?

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    Karla Lockhart Assoc. AIA
    Designer

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  • 2.  RE:What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-07-2011 04:15 AM
    Hello Karla,

    I recommend that you find out who your local NCARB representative is and discuss what the various avenues are that you currently have. You may be able to obtain registration in the State of Carlifornia without an NAAB accredited professional degree in architecture; however, it may be difficult or impossible to obtain reciprocal registration in any other State. While it is not impossible to go back to school later to receive a professional degree, it usually becomes harder to do so later in life and in your career for many reasons. Also take a look at the job opportunities that you may have with exclusive Californian registration compared to NCARB registration with reciprocity across the US. From a lot of comments on various AIA discussion forums it seems that there is the perception of high demand for latter.

    Best of luck with your decision,

         Volker

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    Volker Mueller Assoc. AIA
    Research Director
    Bentley Systems, Incorporated
    Chapel Hill NC
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  • 3.  RE:What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-08-2011 08:08 AM
    Karla,

    I was a project manager in a medium size firm and enjoyed my work very much.  But when I talked to the owners about someday being a partner, it was made quite clear that I would have to be a licensed Architect.  I found an accredited night program at Drexel University (part time) and so began my seven year journey to complete earn my BArch.  I could not enroll in a full time Masters program because I had a family and needed to work.

    I was able to sit for the licensing exam in NY, prior to completing my degree at Drexel, but I would not have been able to get my license in my home state of NJ.  

    After completing my degree, I completed my IDP and got my NCARB Certification.  The certification gives you the ability to get licensed in other states without having to retake the licensing exam.  Some states do have some specific licensing requirements and my test you for those items.

    There are Masters programs (usually 3 years) that allow you to sit for the licensing exam.  I was under the impression that a Masters program is for people who want to teach, specialize in a certain area or have an undergraduate degree in something else and would like to become a licensed Architect.

    Good Luck!

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    John Alford
    Architect II
    City of Norfolk
    Norfolk VA
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  • 4.  RE:What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-08-2011 10:02 AM
    Karla,

    I was a project manager in a medium size firm and enjoyed my work very much.  But when I talked to the owners about someday being a partner, it was made quite clear that I would have to be a licensed Architect.  I found an accredited night program at Drexel University (part time) and so began my seven year journey to earn my BArch.  I could not enroll in a full time Masters program because I had a family and needed to work.

    I was able to sit for the licensing exam in NY, prior to completing my degree at Drexel, but I would not have been able to get my license in my home state of NJ.  

    After completing my degree, I completed my IDP and got my NCARB Certification.  The certification gives you the ability to get licensed in other states without having to retake the licensing exam.  Some states do have some specific licensing requirements and my test you for those items.

    There are Masters programs (usually 3 years) that allow you to sit for the licensing exam.  I was under the impression that a Masters program is for people who want to teach, specialize in a certain area or have an undergraduate degree in something else and would like to become a licensed Architect.

    Good Luck!

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    John Alford
    Architect II
    City of Norfolk
    Norfolk VA
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  • 5.  RE:What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-10-2011 09:31 AM
    Hi Karla,

    I thought of something else after I replied to you previously.  In doing some research last fall to find all the schools that are NAAB accredited, I found that there is one On-line MArch program that is accredited and it's offered by BAC (Boston Architectural College).  I think they require a person to be working, which I think you indicated that you are.  So, it seems with their work-study program, you can do both, getting the best of both worlds- earn your Masters while working. 

    I'm not sure if they require you to work in the Boston area- please check out their website link listed below.  Also, I attached the ncarb contact person info for California, please see next link.

    BAC website (deep link): http://www.the-bac.edu/x274.xml 
    NCARB website:
    http://www.ncarb.org/Getting-an-Initial-License/Registration-Board-Requirements.aspx?jurisid=9--
    Some NAAB schools in California: http://www.architect.ca.gov/become_architect/arch_degrees.shtml

    Maybe you already have this information; if so, please disregard.  Otherwise, I hope this additional information helps you with your decision.

    Thanks for asking a great question that got us all thinking. :)

    Have a great Sunday,


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    Tara Imani AIA
    Owner
    Tara Imani Designs, LLC
    Houston TX
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  • 6.  RE:What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-11-2011 09:13 AM
    Karla,

    I am in the process of applying to the Online M.Arch degree program at the Boston Architectural College and you do not need to be working in the Boston, MA area to apply. You do have to attend a weekend studio each semester and keep track of all of your hours worked as you do get academic credit for them. Applications for the fall semester closed on March 15th, but they are accepting applications for the spring semester.

    There is one other NCARB-accredited Online M.Arch degree program that is offered by Lawrence Technological University in Southfield, MI. http://www.ltu.edu/architecture_and_design/marchonline.asp I am also applying here. Applications are due April 15th for the summer semester. Applications for the fall semester are due two weeks before the start of classes. There is a summer module described in the coursework, but I believe they are changing that. Check with the admissions office to verify.

    I am pursuing an M.Arch degree because I cannot become a licensed architect in the state of Texas without it. Also, the firm that I work for has projects in six states at the moment. I will able to receive reciprocity of my license in those states if I go through the full NCARB IDP process. I would also like to practice internationally and having my NCARB certificate makes it much easier to join organizations such as the Commonwealth Association of Architects.

    Best of luck with your future plans.

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    Peter Farr, Assoc. AIA, LEED Green Assoc.
    Architectural Intern
    Priefert Complex Designs
    Mount Pleasant, TX
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  • 7.  RE:What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-12-2011 03:05 PM
    Here is a slightly different question to ask.  Why is their an artificial barrier (a degree of any kind) if passing the test is the determinate factor.  Everybody in the country takes exactly the same test.  If you can pass the test you have demonstrated the minimum level of competancy required in the protection of the life, welfare and safety of the general public, the reason and justification for each States Practice Act.

    All other threasholds, i.e. degrees, are artificial barriers to practice. In Europe graduates are defined as licensed professionals.  Here it is just another step to taking the test.  So either go with a test with no prequalifers or go with a degree.  Having both smacks of class arrogance (you cannot possibly be qualified without a masters!)
    and restraint of trade.


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    Bruce Monighan AIA
    monighanandesign
    Sacramento CA
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  • 8.  RE:What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-13-2011 08:42 AM

    I agree, it is ridiculous!  I to am put in the position of having a license and having to go back to graduate school!  For what?


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    Crystal Miller
    RA
    Midlothian VA
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  • 9.  RE:What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-14-2011 01:34 PM
    I think that the required combination of education/degree AND work experience AND a test is an example of Architects holding ourselves and our profession to a higher standard than "bare minimum."  They've updated the ARE to "version 4.0" since I took it, but I don't think it was a particularly good test (on several levels).  I'm pretty confident that with 6 to 12 months any reasonably bright person could be trained to pass it - but they clearly wouldn't be qualified to function as a professional architect.  Similarly, there are things that are best taught in school, and things best learned in a work environment, so a degree (in the American system) by itself without real-world work experience is a poor qualifier for professional architects.  (European professional degrees tend to have a lot of additional requirements beyond what is involved with US programs, such as the hands-on construction work requirements in Germany.)  Similarly, nothing but work experience is going to have gaping holes compared with the breadth and depth of a good professional degree program, so that really can't stand on its own.

    It's the combination of these factors that together do a reasonable job of assuring the protection of "the life, welfare and safety of the general public" by ensuring that licensed architects have met several different standards.  Is that a somewhat high and somewhat difficult standard to meet?  Yes, and it should be.  Home and business owners entrust us with responsibility for huge amounts of their money and the lives and health of the occupants of the buildings.

    Do these combined requirements form a type of "restraint of trade"?  Yes, and it's a good trade-off for the overall economy.  Even lower standards for licensing would exacerbate the "race to the bottom", weakening the profession of architecture, which would in turn erode the trust the public should have for us as professionals and the quality of the built environment.  Every profession has some kooks, scammers and incompetents who make it through the licensing process, but lowering the bar and allowing more through does us and the public a disservice.

    In contrast, look at other "professions" with low bars to entry.  Consider low-end IT "professionals" with standards like the MSCE (a well meaning bunch of people, but without a real computer science education, like typewriter repair techs, they're going to have a hard time adapting when the Microsoft ecosystem inevitably dies off.), or the wild west of real estate agents with their negligible licensing requirements.  (I am consistently amazed by agents saying things that are either obvious lies or reflect a total lack of understanding or knowledge of building codes, construction or zoning codes.  Should I bring up their "profession's" role in the gutting of America's cities after WWII or their active participation in the scam housing market of the last few years?)  I'd gladly take out huge loans to go back to school and get a Masters to become a structural engineer (or even a JD and become a lawyer!) if the profession of architecture let itself erode to those levels.

    Let's hold ourselves and our profession to even higher standards, not lower ones.

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    Thomas H. Donalek AIA
    Chicago IL
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  • 10.  RE:What is a Masters in Architecture worth in the State of CA when you can become a license Architect without it?

    Posted 04-11-2011 06:19 PM
    There is also a program in San Diego, 'New School of Architecture'  that is specifically designed around working professionals as well.  The program is 9 months, every other weekend (so about 15 weekends total)  it is accredited and counts as a grad school program.  You have to have some years of work experience, a pre-professional degree, and I believe, a license to take the program. (I believe there is a program similar at the Boston College as well)

    I am looking into applying myself because I am licensed in AZ and cannot get reciprocity in states that require a Masters Degree! I am pretty excited about it.  From what I hear the classes are forum based with older students with real work experience.  The classes are no larger than 15 people, and best of all done in 9 month!  As opposed to the online schools which I believe is still 2 years.  I have my 10 year college reunion this spring and I just cannot see myself doing 2 yrs of school now!

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    Crystal Miller
    RA
    Midlothian VA
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  • 11.  NCARB, Reciprocity, and non-Accredited Schools

    Posted 04-13-2011 10:53 AM
    I attended the University of Colorado in Boulder for my bachelor's degree in Environmental Design from 1991 to 1995.  It's a 4-year, non-accredited degree in Architecture.  I immediately went out and worked after school, bypassing my Masters degree studies.  I've worked at the same firm for almost 15 years, I started my exams for licensure in 2003 and finalized them in 2006 when I was licenced in the State of Colorado.

    I cannot get reciprocity through NCARB because, and only because, my educational credentials are in question because I didn't attend an accredited school with an accredited degree in Architecture, be it a 5-year bachelors, or a 5+1, or 4+2 Masters degree.  I have to, instead, wait up to 5 years before I can utilize NCARB via a secondary reciprocity equivalent which works on a case by case, and state by state basis.

    This is mostly a vent as I have petitioned and questioned NCARB to all ends and received the same "come back when you are qualified" statement.  Qualified?  I am a licensed architect with 15 years experience.  I've been profitable for my firm; I volunteer my time to help assist local charities, etc...  They've told me it's because of my non-accredited degree.  I need to go back to get my masters degree - their first solution.  I'm not in a position to do that.

    I have to question why the educational degree, besides being a source of pride for some to boast their education is better than mine because of where they went to school, is such an important factor to NCARB in obtaining reciprocity when I've already taken the tests in one state and passed them all.  Those tests are national, not regional, so there is no question that I could have passed the tests in Alaska, Florida, New York or Mississippi, just as I did in Colorado.  Does anyone else out there have these experiences?  Different experiences?  Am I missing something blatantly obvious?

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    Bill Wood AIA
    Architect
    Pahl Architecture
    Denver CO
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