Committee on the Environment

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  • 1.  mechanical systems for mid rise

    Posted 02-14-2012 12:52 PM

    We are working on a multistory building of the 1920s vintage that has limited floor to floor and poured in place concrete frame. We are investigating mechanical options that can meet energy star and still work within the limited floor to floor. The building is on the historic register making it difficult to penetrate existing facade. Your thoughts and experience would be appreciated. 
     
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    Michael Lassel AIA LEED AP AIA
    Principal
    Lassel Architects
    South Berwick ME
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 2.  RE:mechanical systems for mid rise

    Posted 02-14-2012 07:59 PM
    I am not sure what your climactic zone is but I would suggest radiant floor heat.  I grew up on these floors and they are very efficient and very effective.

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    Gisela Schmidt, AIA, LEED AP BD+C
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 3.  RE:mechanical systems for mid rise

    Posted 02-15-2012 07:51 AM
    The problem that Michael is facing is that even if the project is heated with a radiant floor system, and ceilings are outfitted with radiant cooling panels (problematic for humid climes due to condensation concerns), that still doesn't address ASHRAE fresh air standards.

    Michael, my suggestion is procedural, not technological. I would recommend you consider some form of IDP and bring in a mechanical engineer into the team at the earliest phases of conceptual design.

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    Francois Levy, AIA, AIAA
    M.Arch, MSE
    Author, BIM in Small-Scale Sustainable Design
    http://is.gd/UJPFta

    http://www.francoislevy.com
    Twitter: @Francois_Levy

    702 San Antonio Street
    Austin, TX 78701
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 4.  RE:mechanical systems for mid rise

    Posted 02-17-2012 07:51 PM
    I expect the project is coastal Maine since Lassel Architects is in Maine.
    The weather probably does not turn on a dime, which simplifies the choices.
    The recommendation for radiant floors is good since they can be done in 2" which is the not muich impact on the floor to floor height and is popular in Maine.  Unfortunately it also means a new door in every opening.  The same applies to the recommendation for raised floor serving as a heating plenum, which is a more flexible system but requires 6" depth.
    The other potential problem is height movement down through the radiant floor ceilng surface.  Fortunately, ceiling insultaion is a necessity for both acoustic and thermal reasons. 
    If you use a radiant floor, place a bubble wrap insulation on the slab for sepatation plus a slippage sheet under any ceramic tile.  Do not use VCT or sheet vinyl.  Place insulation in the ceiling cavity also.
    Is the building able to function on natural ventilation only? 
    You might consider just baseboard heating for no impact on the floor to floor height.
    If cooling is required, simply circulating cold domestic or heat pump cooled water in the slab could work since the building could be set up to require a winter to summer change over.
    If more flexibility is required, two piping systems could be run so that a unit could be cooled or heated without a building change over.  PEX tubing is cheap, it is the topping slab which is expensive for radiant systems.
    Or you could use a Packaged terminal unit system as suggested by the architect from California.
    When you choose a mechanical engineer ask if he is familiar with any or all of the systems discussed on the forum.
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    Rex Peterson AIA
    Baker & Associates
    Scottsbluff NE
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 5.  RE:mechanical systems for mid rise

    Posted 02-15-2012 11:43 AM

    You might also consider a Variable Refrigerant Flow (VRF) system.  VRF is beneficial in applications where ceiling height is limited, because (somewhat similar to radiant hydronic systems) you are moving the refrigerant around and not conditioned air, which requires much greater volume.

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    David Intner AIA
    Component President-elect
    AIA Ventura County
    Ventura CA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 6.  RE:mechanical systems for mid rise

    Posted 02-15-2012 10:53 AM
    I would suggest radiant panels for heating, passive cooling strategies if there are operable windows and potential for cross ventilation, and very small ducts serving a heat recovery ventilation system.

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    Laurie Canup AIA
    THA Architecture, Inc.
    Portland OR
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 7.  RE:mechanical systems for mid rise

    Posted 02-15-2012 12:03 PM


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    James Fair AIA
    Fair Building Technology LLC
    Seattle WA
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    I second the previous message. With the tight floor-to-floor dimension and historic register limitations you have little choice but to go to a radiant heat system where the risers conduct a liquid heating medium in a pipe and not air in a duct. On another note, are the windows single glazed, and if so, can you change them out to IGUs?

    Sounds like a fun project.

    Jim





    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13