Small Project Design

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Custom Residential Architects Network and Small Project Practitioners .
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I recently posted a similar inquiry in a BIM thread, and now realize I am not looking for full-blown BIM, but rather software that can simply coordinate 2D & 3D. 

I am currently using AutoCad & Sketchup to develop plans/elevations and a model in parallel.  Obviously it is frustrating & labor intensive to keep two files current with each other.  There must be a better way witout resorting to BIM, which is more than my small projects require.

Vectorworks seems to do this; is anyone familiar with it?

Rhino has been recommended, but seems to be more appropriate for complicated modeling tasks, and its not clear if it is optimized for simple 2D drafting tasks when it is time to produce CDs.

Anyone have any insights?
Thanks

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Scott Rappe AIA, LEED AP
Kuklinski + Rappe Architects
Chicago IL
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Vectorworks indeed is excellent for coordinating 3D & 2D drawings.  I'm a sole proprietor doing mostly residential work (though Vectorworks is used by many firms doing much larger projects) and I start every job with a 3D model. The 3D model helps the client, and me, to visualize and fully understand the design solution, and it also easily generates elevation drawings.  It will also generate building sections from the model.  The elevations require only minor 2D additions, but sections usually don't have nearly enough detail and so they're good for a background guide to which you add 2D detail.  The program will also generate very good roof framing models in 3D automatically, and even does terrain modeling.  
There comes a point where I start adding 2D information to the model for construction plans, things like dimensions and notes, but in fact it's not a transition from 3D to 2D as the model remains in the drawing throughout and never goes away.  That means that you can make major changes very late in the process without having to re-do everything in 2D.  I highly recommend it.




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Bruce Ward AIA
Proprietor
Hamilton NY
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I've been using Vectorworks for about 10 years.   It isn't perfect, but it may be the best program to work in both 3D and 2D.   It is capbable of photorealistic images, (better than Revit)  and landscaping/site plans, and you don't have to generate 2 different files for 2D/3D.    I haven't found any program as fun to use as sketchup, but it isn't too good for production drawings.  (PS: I import sketchup 3D models into VectorWorks and it usually works pretty well ..... like all CAD software, nothing works perfectly all the time.)

(I've reviewed Chief Architect, and if I were only doing Residential single family, I'd probably switch.)

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Roger Morgan AIA
Chesapeake VA
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Scott:
I am a sole practitioner and I also used to use AutoCAD LT and SketchUp. I switched to Vectorworks because it made no sense to me to coordinate 2 totally separate sets of drawings and images on 2 different software platforms. I am making the transition incrementally -- there is a learning curve -- but have already completed an entire set of drawings on Vectorworks.

Vectorworks has several components. The Architect version costs about $2,400 and the Renderworks component (allowing you to completely render surfaces, etc.) is additional, so I will wait a little until I am more proficient before purchasing it. Even so, the Architect component allows for shaded 3D images, hidden line drawings, sketched lines vs. hard lines and other render options.

I am now working on a new building using Vectorworks. Because I am still learning it seems slower. However, I remind myself that with the model I have built in plan, I can already view it in axonometric and other 3D views. If I make a change in one plan, everything changes automatically.

I purchased 2 manuals from Vectorworks -- Essentials and Architect and they sent me the 3D modeling manual too by mistake. (I offered to send it back but haven't heard from them.) All are helpful in learning the software. Although the author of the manuals is quite knowledgable, the manuals themselves are a weak link in the program. I much prefer the large manual I had purchased years ago for AutoCAD LT which had big chapters on all aspects of the software along with an extensive index. Unless I am wrong, Vectorworks does offer that anywhere. I have not attended any of the 2-day teaching seminars hosted by Vectorworks so I have no idea how much they may have helped. But there was a hefty cost involved, so I didn't sign up. Using the program is a good way for me to learn. There is a helpful YouTube Channel, a Vectorworks Knowledge Base Forum, and a Vectorworking Website. All are helpful, but I still wish there was one comprehensive manual.

I do like Vectorworks and will continue using it. I chose it for relative cost, capabilities, DWG translation, ability to run on a MacBook Pro, etc. I believe that I made a good choice even though it is tough to switch from a platform that I was really good at to one where I am only a beginner.


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Daniel Alter AIA
Daniel Alter Architect PLLC
Brooklyn NY
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I think your problem speaks for itself. BIM software allows you to have a perfectly coordinated relationship between your 3D model and 2D working drawings. When you involve multiple programs you create dead ends. You create a 3D SketchUp and invest all that time in the modeling of this virtual 3D thing and then where do you go when you need 2D working drawings that are worth sending to the permit office or job site? You practically start over or, if you're lucky, you may be able to translate some of that information into your documentation program, like AutoCAD, and now you're on clean up patrol. You're fixing this that and the other thing. You're adding reality to your design that SketchUP can't provide. Now you have two completely disconnected sources of information and you had to work twice as hard to get there.

The beauty of BIM is that all of this information lives in the same file, is completely interconnected, and you have no dead end files going in different directions. The efficiency of killing 2,3,4 birds with one stone is why it's advantageous to have all this information in a single program. What happens when your wall section detail tells you your roof pitch is off once you're in 2D? Now you have to go back to another program and fix that one too. You're doubling your work and your design is disconnected from 3D to 2D. The program you're looking for that will coordinate, collaborate, and consolidate all of this info in an efficient manner is a BIM program.

I've worked on university projects with well over 100,000 sf and I've designed a chicken coop with less than 20sf using BIM. The larger the project, most will argue, the more difficult BIM becomes to manage. BIM is perfect for small projects! I can crank out residences very quickly using the BIM tools. I can make quick changes to the 3D model for the client to see, as a 3D image is so much easier for the lay person to get, and instantaneously the 2D information is updated too. You have to think of your virtual 3D model as the master file and all the 2D drawings are simply snap shots of that model. I pretty much work in 3D through most of the design process, with exception to the floor plans and site plan, and only focus on 2D drawings after the client has 100% signed off on the design. I'll spend maybe 2-3 days on a residence pulling together my construction drawings at the very end. Clients don't understand flat elevations, building sections, wall sections, or flashing details, so why show them this stuff? They do understand photo-realistic images. They sign off on a design very quickly when you can rotate the model around and they can see how it "turns the corner". Using this process with BIM, I can finish a residence from initial meeting to final drawings in as little as 50 hours.

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Eric Rawlings AIA
Owner
Rawlings Design, Inc.
Decatur GA
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I use BIM everyday on my small projects. Currently doing a residential addition and find Revit perfect for the job. Made a model of the existing structure on site with my lap top and using the phasing capabilities of Revit, can fully coordinate the new and existing works. Even broke the project into sub phases so the work can be carried out over a period of years. I use to use sketchup a lot...ever since the original release. My work was a hybrid of Sketchup elevations imported to Architectural Desktop and then Revit. Got tired of the coordination problems and difficulty in making changes so I bit the bullet and while on a vacation, learned how to fully model in Revit. Now I use only Revit and my life is lots easier. Even use the massing tools for conceptual design.

I know BIM software is expensive, especially Revit, but believe me, if you become comptent in BIM you'll consider the expense well worth it in time saved and for the poor enjoyment of modeling.


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Thad Broom AIA
Architect
Thad A. Broom AIA, P.C.
Virginia Beach VA
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Scott,
My practice is focused on residential and mixed-use projects. I've been using Vectorworks for 8 years and I use it exclusively for all of my design studies in 2+3-d, presentation and production drawings and renderings. In fact, I do all of my company graphics in VW as well.
I have never used any other software so i don't have a point of reference to compare...but after 35 years of hand drawing I have found this program to "have it all" for my needs.

Vince

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Vincent Oles AIA
Owner/Architect
Vincent Oles Architect AIA, llc.
Salt Lake City UT
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I have used Vectorworks on small projects (interiors, remodels and small (<5000 SF) buildings) since 1995; it has full BIM capabilities, but can be used in stripped down 2D/3D mode as you see fit. It doesn't require you to add "smart" information to your model to extract (such as SF of drywall in a project); so you can build a simple (or complex) model. That said, it has full BIM capabilities if ever needed. Vectorworks has many out of the box parametric tools (I use the Architect version) such as walls, doors, windows, plumbing fixtures, cabinets, etc. that allow easy production (there's always a learning curve, but I taught myself) of the 3D aspects of a project. It's a fully-capable and CAD/BIM software targeted at the professional market that is considerably less expensive than Revit, but can do any sized architectural project (I just happen to do small projects typically). Hope this helps.

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Don Leighton-Burwell AIA
Owner
DLB Architect
Austin TX
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Hi Scott,  the quick answer is that you do want a building information modeling software but you do not want to use the full bim capabilities of it.  Don't feel trapped into having to use the full  capacity of the tool.  I have been using Archicad for 8 years or so and I rarely use the full modeling capability but the coordination capability is totally phenomenal and allows me turn out dental office drawings and a host of other project types very efficiently.  That said, you can do a sketchup level model of a house and still get great coordination and production without fully bim modeled.  The dilemna is if you buy a less expensive product you may end up feeling limited later on.  Archicad goes for 4k plus and they have a less expensive version.  you might also ask your vendor for time payments.  Others will chime in here on Vectorworks ( and other softwares) which I think is pretty good too and less costly.  If you want to call me and discuss at more length you can google my firm and get my number.  Happy to share in more detail.

Saxon

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Saxon Sigerson AIA
Sigerson Architects
Fair Oaks CA
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I have been using Vectorworks Architect for the last 3 years and have found it to be perfect for my small practice.  Yes, it allows simultaneous 3-D and 2-D work, with any changes in the 3-D model immediately reflected in the drawing set.  As CADD programs go, it is also relatively inexpensive.  If you want to give it a try, there are excellent training CD's that will get you started in no time.

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Howard McNenny AIA
Albany CA
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Scott -

We use AutoCad Architecture, which produces 2D plans based on 3D objects (Walls, Doors, Roofs, etc.).  If you set the vertical heights for these objects, you can readily see the three-dimensionality of your model in an isometric or perspective view.

We are also experimenting with Revit, which does much the same thing, but with a bit more sophistication.

You might call these "BIM" tools, but they work perfectly well for simple 2D "drafting," coordinated with 3D "modeling".

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David Anderson AIA
Anderson Kulwiec Architects
Santa Paula CA
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rhino would be outstanding for this usage.  it is also very easy to pick up if you already know autocad.  once I learned it, I stopped using sketchup and my autocad clone.

some useful videos:
- drafting:     2D improvement for layouts, annotations, and dimensions, preparing 2d drawings for layout
- blocks and project management: large project support and block improvements
- basic bim functionality:workflow and architectural design with visualarq
- cheapest place I know of to get it (almost $200 less than full price($995)):  novedge
- if you are a student or educator you can buy an educational license for $195 and it counts as a full commercial seat (fifth bullet point on the page) can be used for either educational or commercial activities
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[J.][Manganelli]
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To Scott Rappe,
You are correct, Vectorworks is excellent for coordinating 3D and 2D work together.  I cannot compare to the usability of other packages, since I've been using Vectorworks for about 15 years now, but I'm a one-man office and I create every job as a 3D model first, and by the time the 3D model is done to a good level of precision (maybe 8-10 hours for a moderately complex house) the 2D plans are well along too automatically, and everything is in the same file.  Making alternate versions is a simple matter of cutting/pasting parts and pieces between layers.  I can do textured renderings with variable light sources, 2D plans & elevations, 3D isometric details, even a terrain model, all in one file.

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Bruce Ward AIA
Proprietor
Hamilton NY
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-22-2013 23:20
From: Joseph Manganelli
Subject: Coordination of 3D model & 2D drawings


rhino would be outstanding for this usage.  it is also very easy to pick up if you already know autocad.  once I learned it, I stopped using sketchup and my autocad clone.

some useful videos:
- drafting:     2D improvement for layouts, annotations, and dimensions, preparing 2d drawings for layout
- blocks and project management: large project support and block improvements
- basic bim functionality:workflow and architectural design with visualarq
- cheapest place I know of to get it (almost $200 less than full price($995)):  novedge
- if you are a student or educator you can buy an educational license for $195 and it counts as a full commercial seat (fifth bullet point on the page) can be used for either educational or commercial activities
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[J.][Manganelli]
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I also use Vectorworks and find that after drafting 2D plans, the software can create 3D sections and elevations simply by changing the view. Furthermore, if I want to study an elevation through a massing model I can use the exact same file to create both axonometric and perspectival views. I am very happy with Vectorworks for 2D or 3D work and can do it from my laptop using only 6 GB of RAM.

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Daniel Alter AIA
Daniel Alter Architect PLLC
Brooklyn NY
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-23-2013 20:31
From: Bruce Ward
Subject: Coordination of 3D model & 2D drawings

To Scott Rappe,
You are correct, Vectorworks is excellent for coordinating 3D and 2D work together.  I cannot compare to the usability of other packages, since I've been using Vectorworks for about 15 years now, but I'm a one-man office and I create every job as a 3D model first, and by the time the 3D model is done to a good level of precision (maybe 8-10 hours for a moderately complex house) the 2D plans are well along too automatically, and everything is in the same file.  Making alternate versions is a simple matter of cutting/pasting parts and pieces between layers.  I can do textured renderings with variable light sources, 2D plans & elevations, 3D isometric details, even a terrain model, all in one file.

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Bruce Ward AIA
Proprietor
Hamilton NY
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Another program to check out is Archicad's "start" edition. Full BIM capability for solo projects- but you don't have to use all BIM functions to get the benefits. I've used Archicad for the past 10 years for even the smallest projects- it provides a very quick way to model existing conditions and proposed designs with automatic output of plans, elevations, and sections once you've spent a bit of time setting it up. I have also heard that Sketchup has a new version that can provide drawing output, but I haven't seen it.

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Jean Terwilliger AIA, NCARB, LEED APH
Jean Terwilliger Architect
Cornwall VT
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-22-2013 23:20
From: Joseph Manganelli
Subject: Coordination of 3D model & 2D drawings


rhino would be outstanding for this usage.  it is also very easy to pick up if you already know autocad.  once I learned it, I stopped using sketchup and my autocad clone.

some useful videos:
- drafting:     2D improvement for layouts, annotations, and dimensions, preparing 2d drawings for layout
- blocks and project management: large project support and block improvements
- basic bim functionality:workflow and architectural design with visualarq
- cheapest place I know of to get it (almost $200 less than full price($995)):  novedge
- if you are a student or educator you can buy an educational license for $195 and it counts as a full commercial seat (fifth bullet point on the page) can be used for either educational or commercial activities
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[J.][Manganelli]
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I've been using the Vectorworks Designer package for 8yrs. and use it for modeling, rendering, CD's as well as all of my office/band graphics.
Note: I was a hand drawing dinosaur for the previous 30 yrs. and had no previous CAD experience. There is a great support network out there.
Good luck!

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Vincent Oles AIA
Salt Lake City UT
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-24-2013 10:54
From: Jean Terwilliger
Subject: Coordination of 3D model & 2D drawings

Another program to check out is Archicad's "start" edition. Full BIM capability for solo projects- but you don't have to use all BIM functions to get the benefits. I've used Archicad for the past 10 years for even the smallest projects- it provides a very quick way to model existing conditions and proposed designs with automatic output of plans, elevations, and sections once you've spent a bit of time setting it up. I have also heard that Sketchup has a new version that can provide drawing output, but I haven't seen it.

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Jean Terwilliger AIA, NCARB, LEED APH
Jean Terwilliger Architect
Cornwall VT
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I have been happily using Vectorworks for over twenty years now in 2D and to varying extents in 3D.

The thing that I really like about it is that it lets me be in charge, where, based on what I hear from lots of other people, many of the other programs are so inflexible that it can be difficult to control drawing outcomes.

A good person to talk to if you want to find out about its 3D and rendering capabilities would be Dan Jansenson. Just google him.

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Kate Svoboda-Spanbock AIA, CID
Principal
HERE Design and Architecture
Los Angeles CA
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-24-2013 10:54
From: Jean Terwilliger
Subject: Coordination of 3D model & 2D drawings

Another program to check out is Archicad's "start" edition. Full BIM capability for solo projects- but you don't have to use all BIM functions to get the benefits. I've used Archicad for the past 10 years for even the smallest projects- it provides a very quick way to model existing conditions and proposed designs with automatic output of plans, elevations, and sections once you've spent a bit of time setting it up. I have also heard that Sketchup has a new version that can provide drawing output, but I haven't seen it.

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Jean Terwilliger AIA, NCARB, LEED APH
Jean Terwilliger Architect
Cornwall VT
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