Small Project Design

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  • 1.  Learning 'Revit"

    Posted 11-10-2011 12:02 PM

    I am just learning Revit and am concerned because it is not backward compatible. Also all consultants, contractors providing shop drawings, etc. have to be on the same version. I do not understand how this can work on a project that may take many years to complete from initial design to completion. It also appears to be very difficult (and not always successful) to convert the file to a newer version. I am sure other people have solved this problem, so any suggestions would be helpful. Is Autodesk just trying to force everyone to buy the latest version every year?


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    John Martin AIA
    John Martin Associates
    Torrington CT
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  • 2.  RE:Learning 'Revit"

    Posted 11-11-2011 06:49 AM
    You should look at ArchiCAD, which has been a BIM program since 1989. Revit was created to emulate and compete with ArchiCAD. Revit has always been a step or two behind ArchiCAD when it comes to advancement in technology. Sure each program will have a feature or two that someone really loves, but overall Revit will always be like Windows and ArchiCAD will always be like the MAC. One is always setting the trends while the other spends more time copying. When I first started using the program in 1997, you could have a MAC and PC using the same file at the same time. Revit won't even support MAC. It's fully compatible with many programs and they even purchased the dwg translator from AutoDesk, so translations are very smooth. Don't let anyone fool you, Revit is the lesser program and the bull they sell you about AutoCAD and Revit being seamless transitions, when learning Revit is like learning a whole new program. It's nothing like AutoCAD. Learning ArchiCAD requires no more investment, in fact it's easier to learn. I used to teach people how to use it in a past life. They have been doing the same thing since the late 80s. The fundamental program is still the same and keeps getting refined.  It's an international program and therefore icon based and less command heavy. People speaking every language in the world must be able to use it. I have had ZERO problems communicating with consultants on different programs. I can "save as" for 17 different programs including Microstation and Revit. Honestly, I don't understand why more don't use it. Of course I don't understand why most people are on PC, but most of you have to be if you're not using ArchiCAD.

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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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  • 3.  RE:Learning 'Revit"

    Posted 11-14-2011 06:19 AM
    I completely agree with Eric................and must add that in ArchiCAD you are not forced to buy the latest version because it's backwards compatible. As one of my activities here in my country, sometimes I do ArchiCAD training and support, and with the latest version you can open older archives and save in their original format, even you can have installed older versions of  the software in your Mac or PC.

    I hope you stop thinking in REVIT.

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    Rodrigo Godoy Alcarraz
    Architect Principal
    Agro-Arq Architects
    Santiago

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  • 4.  RE:Learning 'Revit"

    Posted 11-14-2011 11:20 AM

    I sent John's comments/questions to one of our  CAD techs.  We've been using REVIT for a decade now.  His comments are in red.  Take em or leave em.  Hopefully, this is helps shed some understanding on Revit for some of those who are looking at various systems.

     
     

     

    I am just learning Revit and am concerned because it is not backward compatible.  No software has ever been backwards compatible, whether you look at AutoCAD, or any other graphics program.  That's like taking a 2010 Lexus and asking the dealer to swap the engine with a 1970 VW Beetle engine.  Not good practice. The matter of backward compatibility is probably one of the greatest weaknesses in any hardware or software.  You'd have to be coding to work with old outdated information.  This would only keep bugs in software and never work to remove them.  Software is always moving forward which continues to eliminate dregs and introduce better means of solving complex problems.

    Also all consultants, contractors providing shop drawings, etc. have to be on the same version.  Yes, everyone has to be on the same version.  However, the architect should NEVER give a Revit file to anyone other than the project engineering team who are contracted to not release Revit files.  Giving a Revit file to G.Contractors, subcontractor and suppliers is not advisable.  We simply provide them with .pdf plans or AUTOCAD backgrounds where needed for layouts such as fire sprinkler systems. BTW, Revit files can be "dumbed down" or flat lined to whatever version of AuoCad that a recipient requests.  A/E firms spend hundreds of hours developing family libraries, details, etc.  Giving a Revit file to another firm is like giving away design services for free.  They can simply save all the families from your file that your firm invested time and money in developing.  Also, I would suspect that there are some liability issues in there by giving a Revit file to G.Contractors, subcontractor and suppliers.  This is best summed up in the 9/2005 AIArchitect article, "Best Practices In Risk Management, Drawing the Line".  It states "The documents are not issued for construction per se, but instead, they are issued to facilitate construction by expressing the design concept. The documents do not contain sufficient information to construct the project, and much more information is required before the work can be done."  You can find that article here: http://info.aia.org/aiarchitect/thisweek05/tw0902/tw0902bp_riskmgmt.cfm

    I do not understand how this can work on a project that may take many years to complete from initial design to completion.  It's never been a problem in our office the last 10 years.  Software is only updated once a year (usually around mid-year) and everyone we work with upgrades when the new software is received.  Typically you are only dealing with 1-3 firms if your engineers/consultants are designing in Revit.

    It also appears to be very difficult (and not always successful) to convert the file to a newer version.  Not true.  Once you decide to upgrade a project to the new version, it takes a few minutes for the software to process the file and then you're off and running.  There was a problem about 5 years back with upgrading, but there hasn't been a problem since.  If people are having problems upgrading, it's most likely because they are not using Revit or modeling with the software correctly.  Inability of technicians should never be blamed on software not working correctly.  Just like anything else we do as a profession, staff needs to get proper training to use the software effectively and efficiently.  Training is not 1-2 classes, but multiple classes and ongoing Continuing Education.  Software is constantly evolving and so should the technician and/or the firm.  Proper training and education is a must!  Keep in mind that hardware should also be properly maintained and upgraded.  If you're using a software version that is two version's old and still using that old Pentium computer, you are most likely only 50% as productive as the firm with the latest version and a compute with the Xeon Quad-Core Processor and 8gigs of Ram.  Time is money in the A/E world.

    I am sure other people have solved this problem, so any suggestions would be helpful. Is Autodesk just trying to force everyone to buy the latest version every year?  Dating back to the early days of AutoCAD Version 2.5 or earlier (1986) and upwards, no firm has to upgrade their software.  If you prefer to stay in the medieval days, and constantly being the re-active firm versus the pro-active firm; son't update your software.  As with any technology, Revit continues to evolve and grow, with new features added all the time.  We jumped on board with Revit, Version 3 in 2001, before Autodesk purchased the software developer.  Since that time, we've seen this software go from a "Why did we buy that?" program to a "gotta have" program for any leading firm.  The program has made leaps and bounds from the early days.


     


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    Robin Miller AIA
    MSH Architects
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 5.  RE:Learning 'Revit"

    Posted 11-11-2011 08:57 AM
    Yes, Autodesk expects all engineers, owners, subcontractors, etc. on a Revit project to have the latest version.  But my biggest gripe is Autodesk gives Revit almost no site BIM capability, apparently assuming this will force the Architect to go hire a Civil Engineer, at the preliminary design phase, who has purchased Autocad Civil (there, so far, is no Revit Civil) to do his site work in order to have accurate parking lots, sidewalks, and ramps around the building for preiliminary presentations, early cost estimating, etc.  Revit gives the architect lighting, structural, plumbing, etc. components to place in the BIM for accurate portrayal of entire project, but they get almost no site tools.

    No problem, so far, upgrading projects from earlier versions of Revit.  I have heard warnings about starting a project in one version and converting to a newer one in the middle of the project, so have avoided that.

    My best advice for you is to get some qualified training in order to jump start the Revit learning process.  Getting set up with Revit modified to your office standards, building a library of wall families and families in general, setting up schedules, takes time.  You should be fine after the third project.

    One other warning.  Never, ever, import a dwg into Revit that is more than just lines.  I have had notes and dimensions get partially imported, get corrupted, generally not work very well.  The lines, like a window jamb dwg from a window manufacturer, will come in with line weights that need lots of work.  That process is not nearly as seamless as Autodesk likes to imply.

    Good luck.

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    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
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  • 6.  RE:Learning 'Revit"

    Posted 11-11-2011 10:55 AM
    You are correct on all counts.  Projects work much more smoothly when everyone on the project team is using the same version of Revit, though it is always possible to open files that were created in older versions of Revit with newer versions of Revit - just not the other direction.  Yes, Autodesk is trying to force everyone to always purchase the latest version of Revit.  Their pricing strategies and their Subscription program also aim to accomplish this.

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    Preston Hite AIA
    Hoar Construction LLC
    Birmingham AL
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  • 7.  RE:Learning 'Revit"

    Posted 11-14-2011 12:53 AM
    All:

    The topic of "revit versions" should be discussed near the beginning of the project. Everyone should agree that they will have to update their version in order to keep the coordination process active, or everyone has to agree to keep the same version throughout the entire project life. At my office we have 3 versions of revit installed on all the workstations because of projects being worked on in various stages. I have a project on 2010 and one on 2011 and will be starting another one in 2012. If there is not agreement then go back to the good old DWG export and share backgrounds that way. I think Autodesk should end this control on backward compatibility, specially in this economic climate. I think they know that they have the superior BIM software and that they can get away with anything. 

    Regards,

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    Daniel Guich, AIA, NCARB, LEED AP
    Project Architect
    STUDIOS architecture
    San Francisco, CA

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