Small Project Design

 View Only
Expand all | Collapse all

fees

  • 1.  fees

    Posted 01-04-2011 09:55 AM
    I totally agree with Susan Rochelle that both the profession and the public would benefit from more open discussion of fees.

    I wonder if this "prohibition" on any discussion of fees has contributed to the decline of the profession.  I remember in the late 1980's when I was in school and just starting my AIA involvement, we had to watch a video at AIA meetings about the Justice decision re: fees.  This taboo has left me, and undoubtedly many other young architects, at a disadvantage for TOTAL lack of information on how to even begin setting fees.

    My question is this: did Justice really prohibit us from discussing fees in ANY WAY?  Or did they just say that we could not collude to set them - which would leave plenty of leeway for discussion?  Are AIA members just "gun shy" because of the decision, and misinterpreting its requirements to our own detriment?  Is there not some simple caveat or disclaimer that could be attached to any official discussions that would clarify the limits of the matter (e.g. "This discussion is informational only, and is not intended to direct anyone how to set fees.")?

    Since that decision back in the 80's our society has changed dramatically into an information economy.  People discuss all kinds of information, and, thanks to the internet, simply expect to have access to information.  How can architects expect to function without fee information?  Are we all expected to reinvent the wheel when we try to start a practice?  Other professions do not operate under these restrictions.  Architects must look even more mysterious to the public because of the silence on the fee issue: "What are they (architects) hiding?  Their fees must be HUGE!  I won't even bother looking into that option..."

    I've tried to explain this prohibition to people in the computer software business, and I just get blank or incredulous looks.  Frankly, is Justice actually going to come knocking if we talk about how many hours it takes us to do some work?  Or whether hourly or lump sum works best for us and helps our particular business or project type/size to be profitable?  Or what clients' typical responses are to the different fee structure options?

    Of course, the realtors have totally colluded to set their fees for years, and everyone accepts it.  They have their little caveats (each client is free to negotiate a different fee, but how many even try?), but the public has a clear understanding of what they will pay.  And they pay it.   A big difference is that those funds are subtracted at the closing table and the client hardly notices because it's all just money on paper.  If people had to write that check to the realtor themselves, they might balk and negotiate.  So architects are in more difficult territory - all the more reason to have some discussion about it.  Of course, we all know that political/economic power clearly makes a difference for the realtors.

    If anyone from AIA who knows about this is on this forum, I'd appreciate some clarification.A

    -------------------------------------------
    Catherine Barfield AIA
    Architect
    Atlanta GA
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  Fees

    Posted 01-05-2011 12:09 PM
    Kudos to Catherine for a thoughtful and meaningful post. This is free country, we are an information society and we are a knowledge based-profession. We should hardly be treated as naughty children for wanting and needing to address this important topic. 

    The AIA does have official publications (such as "You and Your Architect" and there are also other books c.1980s related to compensation) which generically address different fee methods and how those fees are allocated over the life of the project, (over the years, I've noticed that allocation varies by firm).

    I agree that there is nothing in that Justice Dept. ruling that would prohibit learned investigation and discussion of various fee methods and what the components, cash flow and other important economic ramifications are.

    Currently, the architectural-engineering field is fiercely competitive and fees have dropped, and unreasonably so, (vs. insurance premiums which keep going up - go figure...).

    Over the years, the most popular fee method is % of Construction Cost, where I've seen anywhere from 7% of Construction Cost charged (if you were caught in a competitive quagmire), up to 15% (if you were a sought-after name brand boutique firm).

    Recently, a certain firm explained to me how they charge 10 cents/sq. ft. to lay out "test plans" for Leasing Agents to take around would be potential customers to lease lots of available space. It was also mentioned that given that amount, you are really banging those sketch-like plans out VERY fast (amazingly prepared in CAD then finalized in another program that makes them look sketchy and preliminary, just getting a CAD back ground of the existing building can take some effort), and by younger people who often do not understand code or other technical issues and that indeed there was a case that came back to bite them - the Customer liked the plan, but it didn't meet code...Oops!

    The first question is - can you reasonably cover your costs (rent, IT, salaries and benefits, etc). This firm admitted that they are NOT covering their costs and they accept this work at this rate as a loss leader among other reasons.

    Without running amok of the 1980's Justice Dept. ruling, I hope this discussion continues in a way that is educational and meaningful for us all.

    -------------------------------------------
    Gail Ann J. Goldstead AIA
    Wheaton IL
    -------------------------------------------


  • 3.  Fees

    Posted 01-06-2011 03:47 PM
    Regarding the fee discussion, is everyone not familiar with the annual survey from Guidelines called Fees For Professional Design Services?  It's a survey of fee ranges, broken into various building types and quality of construction.  There are multipliers for different regions of the country as well as other factors.  It's a bit pricey but it gives you a general guideline for what others have charged.  www.guidelinesonline.com

    Also, for fellow California architects, there is Management Design's annual survey for California Architectural Firms.  www.managementdesign.com.  It's not a fee survey, but a comprehensive survey of firm sizes, types of work, salaries, benifits, etc. for architects in various regions of California.

    I have found the Guidelines survey partiularly helpful as a reference.  At least I feel I'm not working in a complete vacuum when I'm making a fee proposal.

    -------------------------------------------
    William Foster AIA
    William E. Foster Architecture
    Pacific Grove CA
    -------------------------------------------


  • 4.  RE:Fees

    Posted 01-06-2011 03:52 PM

    Susan, Gail and Catherine all make excellent points and suggestions. The idea of thousands of little architectural shops colluding on price is absurd on the face of it. Perhaps the AIA could be a little less timid in helping to defend us from the ministrations of Big Brother.  That would certainly be more useful than advocating for deficit spending to juice the construction business.   It could be very helpful to share information among ourselves about fees and employee compensation.
    -------------------------------------------
    Christopher Carley AIA
    C. N. Carley Associates
    Concord NH
    -------------------------------------------








  • 5.  fees

    Posted 01-07-2011 11:36 AM
    There is a great book written in 1941 Called "This Business of Architecture" by Royal Barry Wills. Written before the "hard hat" series scared us all to death. It is a very good overview of how to run a successful practice, goes over how to estimate fees (you need to update hourly rates of course as we dont get draftsman for $1.25/hr anymore) and easy to understand. You can find copies still on Bookfinders.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ronald Peters AIA
    President
    HistoricStreetscapes PLLC
    Mesa AZ
    -------------------------------------------


  • 6.  fees

    Posted 01-07-2011 11:39 AM
    For the past few years, probably 10 now, I have been using a non-aia contract for my relatively modest residential projects. 

    Immediately after my interview  I prepare a contract for the Owner's review and signature.  In its letter form,  the format reviewed my attorney, I document my understanding of the client's project, the details of the project, list the documents to be produced, consultants i will use, and contractor involved or bid process.  Next I propose a time schedule for activities needed to meet a construction date that the Owner suggested in the meeting. This schedule is the most aggressive schedule I can commit to meet; and the most aggressive schedule for decisions that the Owner needs to meet. I add the usual discussion of payments, arbitration, ownership of drawings etc. 

    This letter predictably gets one of three results....The contract is signed and project begins; the Owner needs further clarification of the project; or the Owner chooses to work with another professional.  The benefit is that I have formally educated the client on the process, work to be accomplished and my expectations and get the project work started.  This contract has stood up to challenges in Small Claims Court and other legal challenges to date. 

    My reason for not using the AIA contract was that most smaller project Owners were intimidated by the formal document, and because i clearly stated what i would do, it stood up to challenges.  For my fee, I state that they will be invoiced  hourly, and that they should expect a fee not to exceed a percentage of construction.

    i am finding a lot of value in this discussion.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ann Dunning AIA
    President
    Ann M. Dunning, AIA, Inc.
    Chagrin Falls OH
    -------------------------------------------


  • 7.  RE: Fees

    Posted 01-07-2011 03:35 PM
    Zachary Klee wrote:

    Here in Mississippi law prohibits us from discussing fees until we have been selected for the project. I think the analogy would be, "if you required major surgery, would you choose the surgeon based on qualification or cost?". Personally, I'd have to consider both.

     

    This is a major issue when responding to RFQ's that "illegally" request fee information. If we provide it, we've run afoul of the law and risk censure from the BOA. If we don't, the prospective client, who has no idea this law exists, thinks we're being evasive. This is an especially tricky issue when the prospect is a municipality that should know the rules but doesn't or just ignores them.


    Qualifications-based selection is the rule for public work in Washington state, too.  For private work, it is whatever the market will bear (in some cases) or "will you go as low as XYZ who is also bidding to get the job?"

    For some public projects where the client asks for fee information, we've often asked them if they're familiar with the Law, and occasionally we see an addendum come out that directs all interested parties to omit the fee information from the RFQ response.  We have been interviewed for a few of those projects, too, so we know it isn't the kiss of death to ask.  To me, the best medium for this question to the owner's representative is an e-mail.  Calling on the phone could open a can of worms, sending a letter on letterhead is scary, but an email that just says something like "it looks like you would like fee information at this stage, but the law says we need to wait to talk about that until we are selected", and give them a link to the RCW section.  [Actually, the section says they are supposed to pick the most qualified firm, and then talk fees, but phrasing it this way is more gentle than saying "you're breaking the law by the way you ask..."]

    Also for public work -- for the State here, but useful in discussions with many other public entities -- there is a set of fee guidelines (percentage of construction based) and a long list of services.  While the percentages may seem low, there are many add-ons that make it possible to pay for one's consultants and have a bit left over.  Since most of these projects have a budget established ahead of time, it is possible to know the fee that you are having to work towards.

    http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget/instructions/capinst/2009aeguidelines.pdf  for the guidelines/description of services
    http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget/instructions/ae/aefees2007.pdf  for the percentages

    your mileage and fees may vary.


    On the AIA-DOJ front, I too am baffled by the dampening effect of the long-ago directive to "not set fees".  As others have noted, PSMJ and Zweig-White, and likely others, publish surveys; so, at least you can find out what others in your area may have charged for a project somewhat like yours a few years ago.  The "know your costs, have reliable consultants" counsel is the best, but the market may not always agree; there are many owners who still see our services as an annoying requirement.  It is nice to not have to work for such grumpy people.
    -------------------------------------------
    Joel Niemi AIA
    DYKEMAN
    Everett WA
    -------------------------------------------


  • 8.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-05-2011 12:09 PM
    Catherine Barfield brings up more excellent points on this matter. 
    The group health insurance industry has, for years--beginning, I believe, in 1964, compiled data on what doctors charge for specific services within a certain geographical location. This data allows them to decide what is considered "reasonable and customary" and have based their payments on this figure.  Would it not be possible for the AIA to compile a similar database?  There would be no requirement for architects to charge a specific fee for a specific service, but the data would show what fees generally have been.  The history of fees would need to be broken down, as with doctors' services, into geographical regions and specific types of services.  Hourly rates and project scope are two of the matrices that could be included in this history of fees.
    I don't think historical references would be construed to be "setting fees" either by the legal community or the public.
    -------------------------------------------
    Susan Rochelle AIA
    Susan M. Rochelle Architect
    Milford NJ
    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-06-2011 09:46 AM
    I came thru the time period of having to wath the AIA Consent Decree video "Wear your Leagal Hard Hat".  I have the image of the narrator putting on the pristine white hard hat with the bold red AIA logo burned deeply in my memory.  I do not want to go thru another 10 years of watching that video at every AIA meeting again.

    I was very fortunate in the latter portion of internship to be able to work for a firm that was very open with how contracts and fees worked.  So I can say that when that firm closed down due to owner retirement, I was ready to pursue my venture armed with a great toolbox of knowledge. 

    When calculating fees you need to know your own firm's overhead costs and what it takes to keep your doors open.  Establish an hourly rate and estimate how long it will take to complete the project.  Next, establish a relationship with consultants like Mechanical/Electrical and Civil/Structural.  Give them repeat business and negotiate a good fee for their services.  Base your fee around this information.  If you don't know how to calculate overhead costs there are many free resources available.  A local SBA group or SCORE (Service Corps of Retired Executives) can be enlisted for help. A little book I found most useful when I started my firm almost 10 years ago was "How to Start and Operate Your Own Design Firm" by Albert W. Rubeling, Jr.  I have used it so much over the years the binding is coming apart.  It is an excellent little resource.

    Some public entities establish a (gross) fee formula for a specified scope of services for their specific project or projects.  This standard fee takes pricing out of the application process and allows for an experience based selection.  These types of fee formulas can be carried over and used as a basis for establishing a fee with your clients.  Most of the time the (gross) fee forumula includes MEP and Civil/Structural services. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Brian McNew AIA
    McNew Architecture, APAC
    Shreveport LA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 10.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-09-2011 01:29 PM


    -------------------------------------------
    Rex Peterson AIA
    Architect
    Rex Peterson Architect
    Gordon NE
    -------------------------------------------

    I too remember the "Wear you Legal Hard Hat" videos and I also remember watching older architects use the AIA gudeline fee graphs.  The had higher fees for lower construction cost items and different graphss for different types of projects.  I think they all got thown away after inflation kicked in and the users realized that they were charging way too little unless they adjusted for increased construction costs.  

    You can find information similar to the old AIA suggested fee charts in the back of some Construction Data books.  I sometimes copy that page and show it to the client so that we can discuss  "good services" are and how I do not plan to charge too much because they don't know any better.

    The consent decree did not outlaw surveys, collecting fee data or sharing performance information.  However, many architects consider that information necessarily confidential.

    Many of the High Plains states follow the Qualification Based Selection process.  Unfortunately, HUD has regulations that require bidding services and all that goes out they window when they provide money for the project.   They also think that it is reasonable to not fund archtiectural fees until after the construction contract is signed. 






  • 11.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-09-2011 01:30 PM
    I echo the other sentiments that we should be allowed to talk more openly about fees but it's interesting that even the rules for this forum state that users must "avoid discussing specific fees. Do not encourage or direct users to arrive at any agreement that either expressly or impliedly leads to price fixing........ or other conduct intended to illegally restrict free trade. Posts that encourage or facilitate an agreement about the following subjects are prohibited: prices, discounts, or terms or conditions of sale; salaries; profits, profit margins, or cost data...." I believe that is basically the type of information that the earlier post would like to see compiled (using the analogy of doctors).  

    I think that it's interesting that the airline industry can routinely announce fare increase in an obvious attempt to get the other airlines follow suit and it is not considered price fixing and yet design professionals cannot give historical information about what they charge for a specific project type.

    As a related note, I would recommend all architects familiarize themselves with the Brooks Act, this is a federal law and it has been used as a baseline by a number of state and local governments with regard to qualifications based selection (not fee based) for professional design services.  

    -------------------------------------------
    Christopher Yago AIA
    Rockville VA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 12.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-06-2011 09:47 AM
    Here in Mississippi law prohibits us from discussing fees until we have been selected for the project. I think the analogy would be, "if you required major surgery, would you choose the surgeon based on qualification or cost?". Personally, I'd have to consider both.

    This is a major issue when responding to RFQ's that "illegally" request fee information. If we provide it, we've run afoul of the law and risk censure from the BOA. If we don't, the prospective client, who has no idea this law exists, thinks we're being evasive. This is an especially tricky issue when the prospect is a municipality that should know the rules but doesn't or just ignores them.



    -------------------------------------------
    Zachary Klee, AIA, NCARB
    Principal
    Klee Odom + Klee, PLLC
    Biloxi, MS
    -------------------------------------------








  • 13.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-06-2011 03:47 PM

    I have found the posts on fees to be thoughtful and certainly directed in the right direction. It does seem that our profession has been somewhat singled out and our institute seems to have decided this is not worth the fight.

     

    I have thought for years that perhaps a blog (not by the AIA) in reference to the structure of fee establishment and the methodology would be helpful to both the well established as well as those just starting out in our profession. I remember when I first started the discussion of fees was not as taboo as it is today. I have empathy for all of the young practitioners trying to survive in today's environment.

     

    I look forward to every ones thoughts on this.


    -------------------------------------------
    Larry Warner AIA
    Architect
    Warner Group LLC
    Peoria AZ
    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-06-2011 03:48 PM
    I appreciate the discussion about fees and information as well as the questioning of the public appreciation of architecture.  There are a number of sources of suggested fees available.  Particularly, public institutions publish guidelines related to project complexity and dollar value.  This could be a useful starting point.  It isn't as helpful with residential design fees.  These projects often require significantly more time per dollar of value than commercial projects.  Has anyone thought of wikifees?


    -------------------------------------------
    Stewart Brecher AIA
    Stewart Brecher Architects
    Bar Harbor ME
    -------------------------------------------








  • 15.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-06-2011 03:50 PM

    I have been at this for 20 years and never had a grasp on appropriate ways to assign fees,  We negotiate what the traffic will bear, but are really clueless as to what my peers are charging for similar services.

    There is a sense that not only the DOJ consent Decree requires all to be mum, but also a sense that practitioners are unwilling to disclose how little or how much they receive out of professional confidentiality.

    No one really wants to tell how little was made or lost on a project.  

    I propose a blog outside the AIA, where there can be a free and discussion and of fees and build from that a matrix of fees by project type and region that is posted for all to see, from all over the country.

    This cannot possibly be construded by the DOJ as anything other then a public forum,  especially if it is open to those that also pay the fee.....  the Clients..

    Mark


    -------------------------------------------
    Mark Domiteaux AIA
    Senior Partner
    Domiteaux + Baggett Architects
    Dallas TX
    -------------------------------------------








  • 16.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-06-2011 03:52 PM
    It is very encouraging to see more and more of us are opening up this conversation. The time is way overdue for us to unite and re-establish what is reasonable and customary for this profession. BTW there is an organization that publishes fee information compiled from a survey though I don't know how broad the participation is. PSMJ is the group that provides annual reports on salaries and fees; though I think the AIA is the entity that should be doing this.

    Here is a link to the PSMJ website: http://www.psmj.com/surveys-and-benchmarks.html 

    -------------------------------------------
    Robert Gualtieri
    Partner
    OB + Architecture, Inc.
    Orlando FL
    -------------------------------------------








  • 17.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-07-2011 11:38 AM
    This has been a very enlightening discussion, thank you.  In my 18 years of practice (10 in Canada and the rest in New York), I've had very little exposure to the actual process setting fees. 

    When I was an intern in Vancouver about 15 years ago, I remember reading in the AIBC (Architectural Institute of British Columbia) manual about minimum fees, and an actual dollar amount was called out.  The intention was to prevent undercutting of fees, to promote competition based on ability/design/etc. rather than cost, and to set a baseline standard.  I don't know if that is still the case, or if any other Canadian provinces have similar regulations.  If there are any other Canadians on the forum, perhaps they can chime in.

    The Royal Architectural Institute of Canada (RAIC) published a document in June 2009, "Guide to Determining Appropriate Fees for the Services of an Architect".  It's available to non-members for CNDN $25 at the website - www.raic.org.  I've just discovered it this week and am in the process of reading it now.  I'd be happy to report back on its recommendations if anyone here is interested.

    -------------------------------------------
    Roxanne Button AIA, MRAIC, LEED AP
    Architect
    Buffalo NY
    -------------------------------------------








  • 18.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-12-2011 02:56 PM

    First I would like to thank you all for bringing this excellent issue to a closer conversation.  I liked what Brian McNew wrote about getting to know our overhead costs.  Rex Peterson also mentioned the charts, which I think are useful but hard to explain to the client.  Steward Brecher, you have a good point about the guidelines and dollar values, they are certainly helpful.  Mark Domiteaux, we also speak the same language, the matrix idea was my first thought after realizing I needed to figure out a way to solve this issue.  Back to Susan Rochelle, a national index would be the key for it.

    Please allow me to tell you about my personal experience.  I came across the same issue here in Brazil a couple of years ago.  Most of the
    architects and firms have no clue on how to estimate their fees, so the market is a mess.  But everyone agrees the profession has become under-valuated and it is harder and harder to maintain our practices. 

    Fortunately our local institute of architects provides everyone a guidebook on how to calculate their fees based on the national indexes for each kind of projects (housing, commercial, industry, etc.), but with the rush we are always on, nobody finds time to follow through the many
    pages to get to final numbers.  So what happens in the end is that nobody really uses it.

    What I did to help our fellows here was to create some formulas on an excel spreadsheet to simplify the calculation of fees, so instead of having to go through the guidebook, the only thing people have to do is to input the data on the blank spaces and an automatic estimation of costs based on the construction indexes is displayed.

    To solve that issue about each individual overhead costs, the guidebook establishes minimal and maximum prices we could find in the regular market, then each practice would determine their prices within that range.  Another interesting thing would be contracting different packs instead of individual services, so instead of hiring the architects solely for the preliminary studies, the pack would also include site surveys at a affordable price.   The next step I am planning is to diverse the indexes for each State - we have 24 States here in our country, each one with a different index, and I could only work with Sao Paulo's price so far.   That would come along with what Susan was talking about.

    This has been useful not only for our architect community here but I also noticed a lot of clients have been using this spreadsheet to understand better how the architects charge.   I invite you now to take a closer look at it, even though it is in Portuguese and the units we use here are based on the metric system which could be a little challenging.  If you try to use it, please have in mind that 1 sqm equals 10 sqf and the $ exchange rate is 1.90, otherwise you would get non-realistic numbers.

    If someone is willing to help me out with this, we could create a similar spreadsheet for the American market that people can use as a reference.

    The link to download the spreadsheet is http://www.pokt.com.br/tabela_de_honorarios_novembro2010.xlsx

     

    Pease let me hear what you guys think about it.

     

    Best wishes.



    -------------------------------------------
    Andre Pinto Intl. Assoc. AIA
    Architect
    Pokt Design & Arquitetura
    Sao Paolo, SP

    -------------------------------------------








  • 19.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-14-2011 02:46 PM
    If the repository of fee-estimating resources was located off-shore, would the DOJ have any authority over it?  Just wondering, not plotting anything

    -------------------------------------------
    Joel Niemi AIA
    DYKEMAN
    Everett WA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 20.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-14-2011 03:09 PM
    Joel,

    It is an interesting question, but difficult to answer as a hypothetical.  It is possible that an offshore repository would be beyond the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice.  A number of factors, however, could change that.  Assume, for example, that U.S.-licensed architects rely on pricing data maintained for them by a firm in Bermuda.  They then use the data to help them agree on fees they charge clients in the United States.  Because there is an anticompetitive effect in the stream of interstate commerce in the United States, the fact that the data are physically located offshore will in no way immunize the architects from action taken against them by the Department of Justice.

    If any of you should have questions or wish to discuss further, I welcome your e-mail (Select "Reply to Sender") or phone call (202-626-7379). 

    -------------------------------------------
    Jay Stephens Esq.
    VP and General Counsel
    The American Institute of Architects
    Washington DC
    -------------------------------------------








  • 21.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-20-2011 06:12 PM
    I personally find that the AIA's position on compiling price and market data to be counter to both the practitioner's and the public's best interests. I certainly understand the DOJ's position regarding "fee schedules" and stated policies discouraging competitive fee bids. However, I think most architects don't WANT to be told how to price their services. They DO want current market fee information to help them determine where they currently (or strategically) should stand in the marketplace. I would think this is the same thing that consumers would want to know, as well. They are as in the dark regarding fees as architects are.

    Simply publishing neutral current market surveys is something that would help practitioners and consumers alike. I am highly disappointed that the AIA feels so burned by their past encounters with the DOJ that they have to keep any and all pricing information hidden behind a dark curtain out of fear.

    Get an advance ruling from the DOJ, if necessary, to protect your backside. Getting market surveys out to the members is one thing that could add substantially add value to an AIA membership.

    -------------------------------------------
    Richard Morrison AIA
    Richard Morrison, AIA, ASID
    Redwood City CA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 22.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-20-2011 10:25 PM

    There are two competing interests at play here:

    1. A desire to make decisions based on the best available information.
    2. A need for competitors to avoid sharing information in a way that makes it easier for them to agree (or to appear to agree) on what their prices/fees ought to be.

    Means essentially helps with the first interest.  If it (as a third party) assembles historical data with respect to the construction industry, it is unlikely that anyone would think it's doing so in order to fix prices or otherwise restrain competition.

    If competing contractors were to get together to share the same pricing information among themselves, even for the most innocent of reasons, outsiders (including the Department of Justice, and a trial jury) might very well conclude that it was for the purpose of furthering a price-fixing arrangement.

    The AIA has in fact conducted compensation surveys on a periodic basis.  The data there are always historical in nature, collection of and access to the underlying information are closely controlled, and reporting is very limited in accordance with court decisions going back many decades.  An attempt to collect data in any other way would be an invitation to serious legal trouble. 

    If any of you should have questions or wish to discuss further, I welcome your e-mail (Select "Reply to Sender") or phone call (202-626-7379).

    -------------------------------------------
    Jay Stephens Esq.
    VP and General Counsel
    The American Institute of Architects
    Washington DC
    -------------------------------------------






  • 23.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-20-2011 06:12 PM
    I am wondering if historical data would be disallowed by DOJ.  It seems that Means among others publishes historical data for construction.  Is what they are doing illegal?

    -------------------------------------------
    Charles Phillips AIA LEED AP
    Chesterville Architects
    Landenberg PA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 24.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-20-2011 06:12 PM
    Just a simple question - why such worry among architects & the AIA about DOJ conformance regarding fee discussion?  The US government posts architects/engineers fees.
    https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/ref_text/GS23F0168K/0HMPO2.24JL7F_GS-23F-0168K_PES2010.PDF
    see page 27 in pdf

    So, if GSA can publish the facts, why can't AIA?


    -------------------------------------------
    Lisa Stacholy AIA
    LKS Architects, Inc.
    Dunwoody GA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 25.  RE:fees

    Posted 01-24-2011 12:41 PM
    Hi - someone contacted me on LinkedIn and said the link didn't work, here's step by step directions on how I found it.


    The link to the GSA publication you posted on 1-20-11 does not work. I'm very interested in reading it, do you mind sending me the right link? Thanks

    http://www.gsaelibrary.gsa.gov/ElibMain/scheduleSummary.do;jsessionid=87D9F53B8EAB8C57C3B8786FB2F37E10.node1

     

    HOW TO FIND IT

    on upper right side, pull down in "quick schedule" to 871

    hit go

    scroll down to 871 7

    "construction management"

    go to the bottom of the page

    search "H" for heery

    click on link icon under "contract terms & conditions"



    -------------------------------------------
    Lisa Stacholy AIA
    LKS Architects, Inc.
    Dunwoody GA
    -------------------------------------------