Small Project Design

I've used DataCAD for 25 years.  It is a very good, very simple, very easy to learn, and very inexpensive program written by architects for architects.  Although it has its own 3D component, it works very well with SketchUp

-------------------------------------------
P. Frantz AIA
P. Richard Frantz, AIA, Architect
Pottstown PA
-------------------------------------------

With the exception of Cadvance in the late 80's, I've always used Autodesk programs like AutoCAD and Arch'l Desktop.  What experiences have you all had when sharing back and forth non-AutoCAD files with Owners or especially Engineers, etc.?   Are there any difficulties or data lost in the translation?  Mine is a small office.  I'm interested in easy updating back and forth between 2D and 3D as a design evolves in-house.  I'm less interested in BIM.  I would consider a new program especially if my experience in AutoCAD might help in learning the new software.

-------------------------------------------
Russell VerPloeg AIA, LEED AP
Owner
Ver Ploeg Architecture
Des Moines IA
-------------------------------------------

I fooled around years ago with the developing CAD programs after hand drafting for 25 yrs.
I finally "got" it and wouldn't go back to hand drafting although the hand sketching is still a skill
I happily use. I spent a lot of money trying the programs that were out there (I was using Macs) and ended up
giving up the search and settled on Autocad on a Dell when Autodesk quit making Autocad for the Mac and the exchange with engineers and subcontractors was too much effort all around. I did not go into Architecture because I loved CAD but because I loved Architecture. I sometimes have to remind myself that CAD is a tool.
I've always think there is a better CAD program out there and I'm sure the developers of CAD programs strive to impress us.
I believe that Autodesk missed what we needed , which is a Revit-like 3D <> 2D prgram built from the knowledge that so many of us already had with Autocad and the reluctance that we have to starting over and having the dependability nd familiarity of our tools put on the shelf and the office's productivity to be compromised for months. I've bought Revit twice and have tried to get with it and don't.
I do however want the "change it once and change it everywhere" feature of Revit and 3d capability of some program. In an ideal world
I would like it as as an extension of my Autocad knowledge not a replacement.

Thomas Bristol AIA
Purple Flat Top Ltd.
Chewelah WA
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2013 23:44
From: Russell VerPloeg
Subject: 2D with 3D modeling

With the exception of Cadvance in the late 80's, I've always used Autodesk programs like AutoCAD and Arch'l Desktop.  What experiences have you all had when sharing back and forth non-AutoCAD files with Owners or especially Engineers, etc.?   Are there any difficulties or data lost in the translation?  Mine is a small office.  I'm interested in easy updating back and forth between 2D and 3D as a design evolves in-house.  I'm less interested in BIM.  I would consider a new program especially if my experience in AutoCAD might help in learning the new software.

-------------------------------------------
Russell VerPloeg AIA, LEED AP
Owner
Ver Ploeg Architecture
Des Moines IA
-------------------------------------------

I agree with you completely. The problem is that the Softdesk business model is more about making money that satisfying the needs of its clients. Their model says we can kill two birds with one stone if we buy out the competition who invented Revit and have a 3d program that we don't have to spend time and money inventing. Forget that it does not build on what their clients are already using and are familiar with. Having clients spend more money on training that they provide at a premium fee is just a perk. Many of us have drank the "Kool-Aid" and bought this software because we are hoping it will eventually help our position in the market place but as a small firm, I not seeing it. I do a lot of renovations and municipal work and they are not interested in the model just the bottom line and the deadline.

-------------------------------------------
Kathleen Starghill-Sherrill AIA
Principal
SP Arch
Windsor Mill MD
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2013 22:01
From: Thomas Bristol
Subject: 2D with 3D modeling

I fooled around years ago with the developing CAD programs after hand drafting for 25 yrs.
I finally "got" it and wouldn't go back to hand drafting although the hand sketching is still a skill
I happily use. I spent a lot of money trying the programs that were out there (I was using Macs) and ended up
giving up the search and settled on Autocad on a Dell when Autodesk quit making Autocad for the Mac and the exchange with engineers and subcontractors was too much effort all around. I did not go into Architecture because I loved CAD but because I loved Architecture. I sometimes have to remind myself that CAD is a tool.
I've always think there is a better CAD program out there and I'm sure the developers of CAD programs strive to impress us.
I believe that Autodesk missed what we needed , which is a Revit-like 3D <> 2D prgram built from the knowledge that so many of us already had with Autocad and the reluctance that we have to starting over and having the dependability nd familiarity of our tools put on the shelf and the office's productivity to be compromised for months. I've bought Revit twice and have tried to get with it and don't.
I do however want the "change it once and change it everywhere" feature of Revit and 3d capability of some program. In an ideal world
I would like it as as an extension of my Autocad knowledge not a replacement.

Thomas Bristol AIA
Purple Flat Top Ltd.
Chewelah WA
-------------------------------------------

I politely disagree with you completely. I've been in the business for 45 years. Started drafting for an old Architectural Engineer on a tilt up hardwood desk with ruling pens and india ink on linen, I thought it revolutionary when they introduced the cast iron ink bottle holder that you could with one hand fill your pin with it. Then almost by magic appeared the lead holders followed by manual lead pointers, nasty graphite spewing machines that they were. We drew on velum with 'pounce' to condition the surface, then paper with mechanical 05 MM pencils in red and black that we never had to sharpen anything other than our touch because to heavy of a hand and you broke the leads - constantly. About 20 years in somebody dragged me into getting a fax machine of all things. 10 years later "i got a Mac" then "i got dual screens for my Mac Tower" then this monster 27" screen came along on my "iMac". Coupling this machine to Vectorworks and Sketchup and I am fully integrated to import and export in all AutoCad formats for 1/3 rd the price, no crashes, intuitive modelling and great technical support. Oh and did i mention no crashes. Oh and my clients now hover over the screen and want to do what I do with a click of a button. And flying them around and through a model is a real treat for them and us. I've come a long way from the earliest hand drafted art forms, the tools still line and amaze my guests, but I am completely hooked on Mac + Vectorworks + Sketchup. Its a great time to be alive and see the changes that have evolved because we wanted and needed them too. I wish I could be here in another 45 years to see where it goes from here.    

-------------------------------------------
Gerald Martin AIA NCARB
Martin & Martin Architecture, Inc.
Chesapeake VA
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2013 11:13
From: Kathleen Starghill-Sherrill
Subject: 2D with 3D modeling

I agree with you completely. The problem is that the Softdesk business model is more about making money that satisfying the needs of its clients. Their model says we can kill two birds with one stone if we buy out the competition who invented Revit and have a 3d program that we don't have to spend time and money inventing. Forget that it does not build on what their clients are already using and are familiar with. Having clients spend more money on training that they provide at a premium fee is just a perk. Many of us have drank the "Kool-Aid" and bought this software because we are hoping it will eventually help our position in the market place but as a small firm, I not seeing it. I do a lot of renovations and municipal work and they are not interested in the model just the bottom line and the deadline.

-------------------------------------------
Kathleen Starghill-Sherrill AIA
Principal
SP Arch
Windsor Mill MD
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2013 22:01
From: Thomas Bristol
Subject: 2D with 3D modeling

I fooled around years ago with the developing CAD programs after hand drafting for 25 yrs.
I finally "got" it and wouldn't go back to hand drafting although the hand sketching is still a skill
I happily use. I spent a lot of money trying the programs that were out there (I was using Macs) and ended up
giving up the search and settled on Autocad on a Dell when Autodesk quit making Autocad for the Mac and the exchange with engineers and subcontractors was too much effort all around. I did not go into Architecture because I loved CAD but because I loved Architecture. I sometimes have to remind myself that CAD is a tool.
I've always think there is a better CAD program out there and I'm sure the developers of CAD programs strive to impress us.
I believe that Autodesk missed what we needed , which is a Revit-like 3D <> 2D prgram built from the knowledge that so many of us already had with Autocad and the reluctance that we have to starting over and having the dependability nd familiarity of our tools put on the shelf and the office's productivity to be compromised for months. I've bought Revit twice and have tried to get with it and don't.
I do however want the "change it once and change it everywhere" feature of Revit and 3d capability of some program. In an ideal world
I would like it as as an extension of my Autocad knowledge not a replacement.

Thomas Bristol AIA
Purple Flat Top Ltd.
Chewelah WA
-------------------------------------------

After taking REVIT classes and upgrading my AutoCAD program I have fallen back to using a lesser known program which is much easier to use being a small firm and had is easier to learn as you go.  I currently use Chief Architect Premier.  The program is designed for residential but works for small light commercial as well.  The program goes back and form between 2D and 3D modeling as you design.  It creates the plans we need such as framing in 2D and 3D as well as lighting very easily and has an extensive library of items.  The programs works with AutoCAD and Sketchup.  The program also has a rendering component.

-------------------------------------------
Michele d'Amico AIA
Owner
d'Amico Design Group, LLC
Honolulu HI
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-01-2013 11:13
From: Kathleen Starghill-Sherrill
Subject: 2D with 3D modeling

I agree with you completely. The problem is that the Softdesk business model is more about making money that satisfying the needs of its clients. Their model says we can kill two birds with one stone if we buy out the competition who invented Revit and have a 3d program that we don't have to spend time and money inventing. Forget that it does not build on what their clients are already using and are familiar with. Having clients spend more money on training that they provide at a premium fee is just a perk. Many of us have drank the "Kool-Aid" and bought this software because we are hoping it will eventually help our position in the market place but as a small firm, I not seeing it. I do a lot of renovations and municipal work and they are not interested in the model just the bottom line and the deadline.

-------------------------------------------
Kathleen Starghill-Sherrill AIA
Principal
SP Arch
Windsor Mill MD
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 07-29-2013 22:01
From: Thomas Bristol
Subject: 2D with 3D modeling

I fooled around years ago with the developing CAD programs after hand drafting for 25 yrs.
I finally "got" it and wouldn't go back to hand drafting although the hand sketching is still a skill
I happily use. I spent a lot of money trying the programs that were out there (I was using Macs) and ended up
giving up the search and settled on Autocad on a Dell when Autodesk quit making Autocad for the Mac and the exchange with engineers and subcontractors was too much effort all around. I did not go into Architecture because I loved CAD but because I loved Architecture. I sometimes have to remind myself that CAD is a tool.
I've always think there is a better CAD program out there and I'm sure the developers of CAD programs strive to impress us.
I believe that Autodesk missed what we needed , which is a Revit-like 3D <> 2D prgram built from the knowledge that so many of us already had with Autocad and the reluctance that we have to starting over and having the dependability nd familiarity of our tools put on the shelf and the office's productivity to be compromised for months. I've bought Revit twice and have tried to get with it and don't.
I do however want the "change it once and change it everywhere" feature of Revit and 3d capability of some program. In an ideal world
I would like it as as an extension of my Autocad knowledge not a replacement.

Thomas Bristol AIA
Purple Flat Top Ltd.
Chewelah WA
-------------------------------------------

Chief Architect is a real good program.  It lets you draw into 2D and does 3D automatically.  It will generate quick views to photo realistic renderings from within the program.  Only downside of Chief Architect is that it is designed mainly for residential and small commercial.  If your firm does larger projects, I would not recommend it. 

We have been using DataCad for 17 years and the 3D component is not as good as some other ones out there.  It does work with SketchUp which helps, but you don't want to have to do the work twice.  

Vectorworks also is a great program which I have used, but works better on a Mac.  

-------------------------------------------
Joseph Buda AIA
Project Architect
George A. Held, AIA, & Associates
Clifton NJ
-------------------------------------------