Project Delivery

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Practice Management Member Conversations and Project Delivery .
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Stephen Alexander AIA
AG Architecture
Wauwatosa WI
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We are being asked by the general contractor to provide them with our full set of drawings in CAD format to allow them to use them for building layout, as built drawings etc.

On past projects we have, for a nominal fee, given them building templates that we take our name of and make them sign a disclaimer saying the drawings may not be the final CD,s and they use them at their own risk to allow them to do shop drawings etc.

I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks for your input!

Hello,

We typically only give out the base plans (floor plan, overall lighting plan, RCP, duct layout, structural grid, etc) upon request to sub-contractors for the sole purpose of assisting with shop drawings.  We only do this upon request and we have them sign and return an indemnification form.  Our indemnification form states in a legalese format that:
- use of this data is at the sole risk of the contractor and indemnifies the AE for any damages, fees, claims, etc that arise out of the use of this data
- electronic data cannot be controlled and therefore contractor is responsible for verifying the validity of the information and to follow the printed contract documents
- the AE assumes no responsibility for the submitted data as electronic files cannot be controlled once they leave the AE

There may be other provisions and putting it in legalese adds items.

I would recommend having the indemnification form and only giving the bare minimum of base plans the contractor actually needs to complete the work.  Sending over your details, sections etc usually provides no benefit.

I would also recommend having a conversation with them regarding how they intend on using transmitted CAD files for building layout.  You want to make sure that the contractor keeps the responsibility for laying out the building and not just rely upon your cad files which we all known may not be 100% accurate and could cause problems during layout.  The contractor develops their own layout drawings.

Hope this helps
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Jason Chandler, AIA, LEED AP
Director of Project Management
Epstein
Chicago, IL
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-03-2011 17:42
From: Stephen Alexander
Subject: giving cad file to contractors

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Practice Management Member Conversations and Project Delivery .
-------------------------------------------


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Stephen Alexander AIA
AG Architecture
Wauwatosa WI
----------
We are being asked by the general contractor to provide them with our full set of drawings in CAD format to allow them to use them for building layout, as built drawings etc.

On past projects we have, for a nominal fee, given them building templates that we take our name of and make them sign a disclaimer saying the drawings may not be the final CD,s and they use them at their own risk to allow them to do shop drawings etc.

I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks for your input!

Speaking from the contractor's point of view, it's been a long time - and many projects - since this was an issue on any of my projects.

Not only have the advancements in BIM moved most of our projects beyond CAD created exclusively by/for the Architect, but we have major clients that are requiring that project teams find a way to work from a single model, which includes use of the same model for developing fabrication drawings for the structure, pre-fabrication of ductwork and piping, and other coordination and information.

As for a disclaimer, there is no reason the contractor shouldn't agree to sign a disclaimer - the entire purpose for using the CAD is to help coordinate their work and detailing. I can't agree with the fee, however, since that fee will mostly likely be passed along to the Owner through the project costs, and since the Owner has already paid you to create the CAD, your firm should get neither another fee nor should the Owner pay twice. If you have any level of trust with your contractor (and it sounds like you may not), a disclaimer and/or a project-specific non-disclosure agreement should mean that sanitizing modifications to the CAD shouldn't be necessary.

Good luck with your contractor and the project. I hope sharing the CAD turns out to be a productive experience for all parties and create a relationship between your two firms for future collaboration.

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Julie Dobyns
LEED AP BD+C, CHC, EDAC, CDT
DPR Construction
Newport Beach CA
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-03-2011 17:42
From: Stephen Alexander
Subject: giving cad file to contractors

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Practice Management Member Conversations and Project Delivery .
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Stephen Alexander AIA
AG Architecture
Wauwatosa WI
----------
We are being asked by the general contractor to provide them with our full set of drawings in CAD format to allow them to use them for building layout, as built drawings etc.

On past projects we have, for a nominal fee, given them building templates that we take our name of and make them sign a disclaimer saying the drawings may not be the final CD,s and they use them at their own risk to allow them to do shop drawings etc.

I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks for your input!

You stated"...I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate."  Then why would you even consider it?  Did you agree to this upfront in the executed contract?  Since your gut seems to already be NOT to release in this format, then trust your instinct and experience.  I suggest your review this request with your insurance carrier as the policy may prohibit you from releasing your "work product" in a maniputable format.  For comparison, think back to pre-cadd days when contractors created 'as-builts'.  The made sepias or copies of the paper CD's, marked up the revised field conditions and then printed copies. 

Architects need to respect their work product.  Under no circumstances would I release my work product in any maniputable form. 
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Mary Graham AIA
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The General Contractor should not be given the entire set of drawings as this would be the equivalent of handing over quite a bit of intellectual property and building details and sections and other resource material could be utilized by unscrupulous parties.  We have provided architectural floor plans, reflected ceiling plans, electrical plans, mechanical plans, plumbing plans, plumbing riser diagrams and just project specific materials that assist contractors in submitting as-builts.  But the rest of the drawings, details and schedules should be developed and created independently by the contractor if he believes he must submit anything more as part of his submittal requirements.

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Massimo Bianchini AIA
President
Architectural Resource Corporation
Frankfort IL
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Michael Clark AIA
Director Of Design
H&H Design-Build
New Albany IN
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I do not recommend giving complete sets of CAD drawings out to the contractor.  Many of our clients request Record Drawings in CAD format.  We are fine with that as we maintain control over the files.  This is not a legal concern, but a technical one.  It is too easy for other systems to corrupt a drawing or file and then the Architect is left fixing the problem. 

The A&E for the project can update their drawings from marked up drawings easily, compared to corrupted files.

Just say NO!





Original Message:
Sent: 08-03-2011 17:42
From: Stephen Alexander
Subject: giving cad file to contractors

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Practice Management Member Conversations and Project Delivery .
-------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------
Stephen Alexander AIA
AG Architecture
Wauwatosa WI
----------
We are being asked by the general contractor to provide them with our full set of drawings in CAD format to allow them to use them for building layout, as built drawings etc.

On past projects we have, for a nominal fee, given them building templates that we take our name of and make them sign a disclaimer saying the drawings may not be the final CD,s and they use them at their own risk to allow them to do shop drawings etc.

I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks for your input!

This has actually been happening to our firm a lot lately.  
The truth is, the contractors don't want to pay the printer.
I understand that with ipads or tablet pcs and smart phones that pdf's are becoming more relevant in the field, but the time it takes to produce the files and the potential for error or missing files is still a big problem.  The printer can provide pdf's of the drawings and you know that they will include all the addenda and bulletin items.  Another problem with this request is that we don't always get the pdf files of C/S/M/E drawings from our consultants.  I've asked our consultants how they deal with this request and they said leave it to the printer.  
I'm sure there's a simple way that we could initiate a process in our office for this, but times are tough right now and ethically I can't justify undercutting the printer to make that much more work for myself.

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Sara Tripp Assoc. AIA
Wakely Associates A/E Inc.
Warren MI
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-03-2011 17:42
From: Stephen Alexander
Subject: giving cad file to contractors

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Practice Management Member Conversations and Project Delivery .
-------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------
Stephen Alexander AIA
AG Architecture
Wauwatosa WI
----------
We are being asked by the general contractor to provide them with our full set of drawings in CAD format to allow them to use them for building layout, as built drawings etc.

On past projects we have, for a nominal fee, given them building templates that we take our name of and make them sign a disclaimer saying the drawings may not be the final CD,s and they use them at their own risk to allow them to do shop drawings etc.

I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks for your input!

Stephen:
You have followed thr right protocols & should feel comfortable using them again in this case.
Burt
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Burton L. Roslyn, FAIA
President
Roslyn Consultants, LLC
Roslyn Heights, New York
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-03-2011 17:42
From: Stephen Alexander
Subject: giving cad file to contractors

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Practice Management Member Conversations and Project Delivery .
-------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------
Stephen Alexander AIA
AG Architecture
Wauwatosa WI
----------
We are being asked by the general contractor to provide them with our full set of drawings in CAD format to allow them to use them for building layout, as built drawings etc.

On past projects we have, for a nominal fee, given them building templates that we take our name of and make them sign a disclaimer saying the drawings may not be the final CD,s and they use them at their own risk to allow them to do shop drawings etc.

I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks for your input!

In the past we have given either full-size PDFs or DWFs that they can do mark-ups on. The one time we gave our full set of CAD files (it was a job for a municipality), those drawings ended up being used as a template for a future job...done by another architectural firm. I firmly believe that our CAD files are proprietary. If somebody needs them for as-builts, record drawings or whatever, then they can mark-up over hard-copies, or hire us back to record the changes in CAD and provide a hardcopy version as the output. It seems a bit "hard nosed", I know, but there is a lot of office info that goes into CAD files (office standards, standard details, etc.), and I do not transfer that info away to be used by a contractor or future architect. Once burned, twice shy.

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George Hideg AIA
Design Apparatus
Spokane WA
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We also charge a nominal fee. We require that the contractor sign an AIA Document C106 Digital Data Licensing Agreement, which clearly states the conditions of use, before we release the CAD files.  
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Mark Herr AIA
Plunkett Raysich Architects LLP
Milwaukee WI
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Original Message:
Sent: 08-03-2011 17:42
From: Stephen Alexander
Subject: giving cad file to contractors

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Practice Management Member Conversations and Project Delivery .
-------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------
Stephen Alexander AIA
AG Architecture
Wauwatosa WI
----------
We are being asked by the general contractor to provide them with our full set of drawings in CAD format to allow them to use them for building layout, as built drawings etc.

On past projects we have, for a nominal fee, given them building templates that we take our name of and make them sign a disclaimer saying the drawings may not be the final CD,s and they use them at their own risk to allow them to do shop drawings etc.

I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks for your input!

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Patrick Roy AIA
Principal
Patrick Anthony Roy, Architect & Planner
Englishtown NJ
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Cad drawings are proprietary documents and should not be copied
by others than the originator of the the documents.

As built drawings provision should be made in the contract document that the only the
originator of documents makes changes for as built drawings to be forwarded to
the owner and not to the contractor. Also contact CAD software sellers for instructions
regarding proprietary transmittal codes placed on documents released to the owner.
Liability questions should also be addressed with the originator's (Architect) insurance
to avoid undue responsibilities arising during transmittal of proprietary CAD drawings
to owner and/or contractors. 





Original Message:
Sent: 08-03-2011 17:42
From: Stephen Alexander
Subject: giving cad file to contractors

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Practice Management Member Conversations and Project Delivery .
-------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------
Stephen Alexander AIA
AG Architecture
Wauwatosa WI
----------
We are being asked by the general contractor to provide them with our full set of drawings in CAD format to allow them to use them for building layout, as built drawings etc.

On past projects we have, for a nominal fee, given them building templates that we take our name of and make them sign a disclaimer saying the drawings may not be the final CD,s and they use them at their own risk to allow them to do shop drawings etc.

I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks for your input!