Custom Residential Architects Network

Dear Fellow CRAN members:

One of our National CRAN sponsors has posed a question to our group.   Firerock who manufactures prefabricated masonry fireplaces currently offers their products in dwg and dxf formats.   They are considering adding Revit and or Sketchup files to their website.  Since there is considerable cost involved they asked us which format do you feel will serve a wider audience?

Your feedback would be most appreciated.   Our sponsors feel that CRAN membership becoming the "beta" testers on new developments from is a valuable asset for them.    It is nice to feel our opinions do matter.

Warm Regards,

Chris
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Christopher Rose AIA
President
Christopher Rose Architects, P.A.
Johns Island SC

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Even non-AutoCAD packages, like the one I use, take advantage of the dxf and dwg formats. So, I vote for dxf or dwg.

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Sean Catherall, AIA
Herriman UT
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Of course I can only speak for myself and I might not be the norm, but I have actually chosen one product over another because the manufacturer had/has Revit components available. Mainly on residential projects when products are sometimes specified right on the drawings. For instance I have a partial leaning towards Kohler plumbing fixtures because their entire library is available as Revit Families. Sure if a client requests a specific American Standard vanity I'll use the dwg block available and import it, but it's quicker to just drop in a ready made revit family.

Just a word of advice. If they decide to make Revit families, K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid. Overall massing with some detail is nice for things like sections, but overkill with detail and those families are more trouble than they are worth. For instance Pella Doors and Windows. Great Company. Great Products. Horribly WAY over drawn/modeled Revit families. With Revit families sometimes less really is more.  

Good luck and I look forward to hopefully seeing some of their Revit families soon. 

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Gordon McKenzie Assoc. AIA
Tartan CAD Services
Lewisville TX
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SketchUp will likely reach a wider audience.  It is easier to use, for the most part free (or of minimal expense for the Layout 2D option that can import and export to AutoCad), and quite frankly, fun to use.  That being said, Revit casts a long shadow in the A/E world right now, mainly due to BIM characteristics, despite the perceived long learning curve and much greater cost.  If I was a manufacturer, I would first create my products in SketchUp (which is at its basic a 3D program), then import the 2D orientations of that into AutoCad 2D and then into Revit.  I think that if a manufacturer truly wants to make it easy for architects to use their products having all of this Big 3 permutations of their products would help them with market penetration.  They should also save their products to the Google 3D Warehouse, where they will receive worldwide exposure and possible use to the entire planet.  Best of luck!

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Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Rand Soellner Architect
Cashiers NC
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I concur, .Skp file format is by far the most accessible world-wide due to Googles free 3D library and it's free offering of Google SketchUp. Though Revit files are very helpful to those that use Revit, it is does not share the tremendous market share that SketchUp has worldwide. From a business standpoint, .skp file format is a no brainer, but one would need to make strategic alliances with Autodesk if only Revit files were to be produced, because the other big three BIM platforms would be exlcuded. ------------------------------------------- Ricardo Ramos Assoc. AIA, LEED® AP, CSI Alpha Analysis, Inc. Arcadia CA -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 02-01-2012 07:42 From: Rand Soellner Subject: A request from one of our National Sponsors SketchUp will likely reach a wider audience. It is easier to use, for the most part free (or of minimal expense for the Layout 2D option that can import and export to AutoCad), and quite frankly, fun to use. That being said, Revit casts a long shadow in the A/E world right now, mainly due to BIM characteristics, despite the perceived long learning curve and much greater cost. If I was a manufacturer, I would first create my products in SketchUp (which is at its basic a 3D program), then import the 2D orientations of that into AutoCad 2D and then into Revit. I think that if a manufacturer truly wants to make it easy for architects to use their products having all of this Big 3 permutations of their products would help them with market penetration. They should also save their products to the Google 3D Warehouse, where they will receive worldwide exposure and possible use to the entire planet. Best of luck! ------------------------------------------- Rand Soellner AIA Architect/Owner/Principal Rand Soellner Architect Cashiers NC -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 01-31-2012 11:45 From: Christopher Rose Subject: A request from one of our National Sponsors Dear Fellow CRAN members: One of our National CRAN sponsors has posed a question to our group. Firerock who manufactures prefabricated masonry fireplaces currently offers their products in dwg and dxf formats. They are considering adding Revit and or Sketchup files to their website. Since there is considerable cost involved they asked us which format do you feel will serve a wider audience? Your feedback would be most appreciated. Our sponsors feel that CRAN membership becoming the "beta" testers on new developments from is a valuable asset for them. It is nice to feel our opinions do matter. Warm Regards, Chris ------------------------------------------- Christopher Rose AIA President Christopher Rose Architects, P.A. Johns Island SC -------------------------------------------

They should do both/all, as architects clearly use both/all. If they do Sketchup or Revit only, they are missing out on architects who use the the other program. If they are serious about having all architects potentially using their product, why would they exclude a potential market share? And they should do all three BIM platforms. Why are we continuing to discuss this? This is not a business decision or income for us, it is for them. I realize it saves us time and money if they have it available in our formats; the vendor is in the position to make the most direct money in sales for having the most possible architects including it in our projects. As for unethical, use the product and spec "or equal". I think this forum has given enough feedback and energy replying to this. If the vendor spent as much time and energy as we have reading and responding to this question; they would have models done in all formats by this time. 

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Peter Brinckerhoff AIA, LEED AP
President
Brinckerhoff and Associates LLC
Skokie IL
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Original Message:
Sent: 02-02-2012 09:32
From: Ricardo Ramos
Subject: A request from one of our National Sponsors


I concur, .Skp file format is by far the most accessible world-wide due to Googles free 3D library and it's free offering of Google SketchUp. Though Revit files are very helpful to those that use Revit, it is does not share the tremendous market share that SketchUp has worldwide. From a business standpoint, .skp file format is a no brainer, but one would need to make strategic alliances with Autodesk if only Revit files were to be produced, because the other big three BIM platforms would be exlcuded.
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Ricardo Ramos Assoc. AIA, LEED® AP, CSI
Alpha Analysis, Inc.
Arcadia CA
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I find Revit is evolving into a new industry standard. It seems to me like Autodesk is phasing AutoCAD into Revit and a lot of the industry is following. Already a lot of the large window and plumbing manufacturers are supplying their product standards in cad and Revit formats. I have started switching my work into Revit and the more downloadable items I can find the better.

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Leslie Schneeberger Assoc. AIA
Spring Line
Harwich MA
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I would like Revit.

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Linna Frederick FAIA
Principal
Frederick & Frederick Architects
Beaufort SC
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Hi Chris,

I would recommend that they make any 3D parts in a .IFC (Industry Foundation Class) format. That is the most useful format because any true BIM software (ArchiCAD, Revit, Bentley..) can read and share it. The geometry and the data about the item make the trip back and forth intact.

While it hasn't caught traction in the market place yet, sharing live data is where the industry is headed.

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Paul Adams AIA
Principal
Earth And Sky Architecture
Denver CO
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Both the Revit and SketchUp object files are proprietary, the difference being that only Revit can use RFA files where most 3D CAD, BIM and modeling software can open SketchUp files and/or access the Google 3D Warehouse. As a matter of fairness, interoperability, and respect for those who don't practice in Autodesk dominated North America SketchUp is a better choice. As Paul points out IFC is even better, being an open standard, but I have not seen it used for components, only entire models.

As far as specifying a product because the manufacturer offers a particular digital representation, I would say you're on shaky ground ethically. Your job is to represent your client and recommend the best products for a given project, not simply the ones that are easier to document.

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Geoff Briggs Assoc. AIA
I & I Design, Seattle
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For our office REVIT is definately the way to go.  Once you go down the BIM road Sketch-up becomes a tool of the past.  Anyone that is not using BIM is currently just delaying the inevitable.  That being said I agree with Gordan from an earlier post, mfg's should provide the 3d files but keep them fairly simple, just add enough detail to clearly show their product but don't go overboard with detail to the point where the the file size is large

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Erik Koss AIA
President
KOSS design
Phoenix AZ
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