Custom Residential Architects Network

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Small Project Practitioners and Custom Residential Architects Network .
-------------------------------------------
I am the owner of a small residential design firm.  While I have over a decade of experience in my field, I am new to owning my own firm.  I lack confidence in my structural skills, so I developed a relationship with a structural engineer to assist me in developing my framing plans, and to size the structural members.  Its been a great relationship, but now that my projects are starting the construction phase, I am getting a lot of push back from contractors that the structures are over-designed. While I trust my engineer's calculations, I am also realistic that the contractor has built way more house than I have at this point, and has a better understanding for building standards.  Has anyone else dealt with a similar situation?  Any advice on how to determine when the contractor is right vs. insisting he follow the engineered designs?  Any books or other resources you might recommend?  Or any other business models out there that might give me the structural support (no pun intended) that I am looking for while accounting for standard business practices?

Thank you,
-------------------------------------------
Lisa Cohen AIA
Architect
LMC Architecture, LLC
Fair Lawn NJ
-------------------------------------------

Once the project is in construction, it's a contractual issue, not a design issue. He should follow the drawings or offer an alternate design as a change order backed up with HIS engineers calculations. As a change order, the Owner is entitled to share in the cost savings and the Architect should be compensated as well for their time. I would have YOUR engineer review the change order, since they are the building design professional that authored the work. He should be compensated, too, and that should be considered in determining whether there are any cost savings while still safeguarding the health safety and welfare of the Owner and other occupants. I think once you suggest he develop a change order request and account for all the associated costs and cost savings, he'll probably just build what he agreed to in his contract.
-------------------------------------------
David Del Vecchio AIA
Architect
David Del Vecchio, Architect, LLC
Cranford NJ
-------------------------------------------

David is correct, but also remember that the builder is probably looking at the maximum span tables in the building code, and your structural engineer is hopefully applying some practical experience to the sizing of members.  My experience is that building code maximum spans are a little "bouncy", and I always upsize a little to make the floors more solid feeling.  No one wants to move into a custom home and have it feel flimsy. 

-------------------------------------------
Ralph Olivier AIA
Principal
Ralph A. Olivier AIA
Landenberg PA
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 09-24-2014 11:54
From: David Del Vecchio
Subject: Working with Structural Engineers


Once the project is in construction, it's a contractual issue, not a design issue. He should follow the drawings or offer an alternate design as a change order backed up with HIS engineers calculations. As a change order, the Owner is entitled to share in the cost savings and the Architect should be compensated as well for their time. I would have YOUR engineer review the change order, since they are the building design professional that authored the work. He should be compensated, too, and that should be considered in determining whether there are any cost savings while still safeguarding the health safety and welfare of the Owner and other occupants. I think once you suggest he develop a change order request and account for all the associated costs and cost savings, he'll probably just build what he agreed to in his contract.
-------------------------------------------
David Del Vecchio AIA
Architect
David Del Vecchio, Architect, LLC
Cranford NJ
-------------------------------------------

Structural codes and requirements have changed a lot in the past few years along with the building codes so your contractor may not be up on what is currently required to comply with the codes in your area. If your engineer won't put his stamp on a lessor structural design, why would you?

-------------------------------------------
Pamela Leonard AIA
Architect

-------------------------------------------

Agreed. Contractors are simply not licensed to protect the health, safety and welfare of the building occupants and therefore are not qualified to make structural decisions.

-------------------------------------------
David Del Vecchio AIA
Architect
David Del Vecchio, Architect, LLC
Cranford NJ
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2014 17:42
From: Pamela Leonard
Subject: Working with Structural Engineers

Structural codes and requirements have changed a lot in the past few years along with the building codes so your contractor may not be up on what is currently required to comply with the codes in your area. If your engineer won't put his stamp on a lessor structural design, why would you?

-------------------------------------------
Pamela Leonard AIA
Architect

-------------------------------------------

First, I would get any contractors that tell you that things are over designed to give you the cost differences between what they are proposing versus what you are proposing.  I would bet that in most cases it would be worth the minor amount more to have it your way.

Francis Ching - Building Structures Illustrated might be a good resource. 

-------------------------------------------
Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
-------------------------------------------

I hear this all the time. Ask the builder if he can seal the plans and take responsibility for the structure for a long time.

I do find engineers are a bit  heavy handed. Call it a safety factor plus several errors and omission payments. Does the builder have such?

I have asked my engineer to approve by observation many times. Just based  on the observation the building or detail  has stood for 30 years a 100 years.  Tested by time, a full scale working model. What more can one ask for.  He always says no is it not fine. So we argue over it. He always wins when he ask me to stamp the drawings.

I use 4  engineers depending on the work. Some are more builder friendly than others. Ask some of the builders in your area who they call on.

I like a stiff floor l/480 or greater, wall  and roof (no scalloping on a frosty morning for me).  I also think about long term creep of wood. What is going  to be like 20 years 40 years? Longer, a hundred years. So we do not design to minimums. Remember the building code is the least required by law. So the building code is good starting point.

Best of luck in your new PRACTICE..


-------------------------------------------
Donald Duffy AIA
Don Duffy Architecture
Charlotte NC
-------------------------------------------

Donald,

You stated "Remember the building code is the least required by law."  I might phrase it another way, "If it was built any worse, it would be illegal."

-------------------------------------------
Ralph Olivier AIA
Principal
Ralph A. Olivier AIA
Landenberg PA
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 09-25-2014 17:55
From: Donald Duffy
Subject: Working with Structural Engineers


I hear this all the time. Ask the builder if he can seal the plans and take responsibility for the structure for a long time.

I do find engineers are a bit  heavy handed. Call it a safety factor plus several errors and omission payments. Does the builder have such?

I have asked my engineer to approve by observation many times. Just based  on the observation the building or detail  has stood for 30 years a 100 years.  Tested by time, a full scale working model. What more can one ask for.  He always says no is it not fine. So we argue over it. He always wins when he ask me to stamp the drawings.

I use 4  engineers depending on the work. Some are more builder friendly than others. Ask some of the builders in your area who they call on.

I like a stiff floor l/480 or greater, wall  and roof (no scalloping on a frosty morning for me).  I also think about long term creep of wood. What is going  to be like 20 years 40 years? Longer, a hundred years. So we do not design to minimums. Remember the building code is the least required by law. So the building code is good starting point.

Best of luck in your new PRACTICE..


-------------------------------------------
Donald Duffy AIA
Don Duffy Architecture
Charlotte NC
-------------------------------------------

I also have a small practice that focuses on residential design but I do most of the engineering myself. Over the years I have seen many engineers who over-design small, residential buildings unnecessarily. If your problem is with small, wood frame structures (three stories or less) I suggest you check with someone else who designs this type of building. As an architect, you need to have some facility with structural design in order to predict the ability to integrate the structural system into the architecture. There are span and load tables in the code books. Make an effort to learn how to use them and you will be able to estimate the size of the structural members in advance without having to take responsibility for them.

-------------------------------------------
A. Atkinson
A. Gordon Atkinson, Architect
San Francisco CA
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 09-27-2014 02:39
From: Ralph Olivier
Subject: Working with Structural Engineers

Donald,

You stated "Remember the building code is the least required by law."  I might phrase it another way, "If it was built any worse, it would be illegal."

-------------------------------------------
Ralph Olivier AIA
Principal
Ralph A. Olivier AIA
Landenberg PA
-------------------------------------------

Lisa:
Stick with your engineer's recommendations or review with him any suggestions that the builder makes.  Then carefully explain your decisions to the builder.  I can't tell you how many times I have been in the same position over the years.  The best liability insurance you can have is that you made the prudent decision to hire a structural engineer to review your designs.  It takes a while, but once a contractor understands you are more current with Codes and can collaborate  with both the engineer and the contractor to find the best solutions for the Owner and the team  he will appreciate your approach.  My contractors now ofter will ask for the engineer's input when they are working on a tough project. and even when it is not my project.

Good luck with your work.

-------------------------------------------
Ann Dunning AIA
President
Ann M. Dunning, AIA, Inc.
Chagrin Falls OH
-------------------------------------------

First, check to see what has been approved by the building department. If they have approved your engineers calcs, then the contractor has to go to the engineer and see if his idea calcs out. The building code changed in January of this year; your contractor may be behind the times.

That said, you might check with other architects who have worked with that engineer before and see if they think he over-designs things. I'd give the professionals precedence over the contractor, all other things being equal.

-------------------------------------------
Judith Wasserman AIA
Bressack & Wasserman
Palo Alto CA
-------------------------------------------

Lisa,

Contractors are almost ALWAYS saying the structures are over designed.

You can ask the Engineer to clarify what safety of margin they used in their calculations and sizings.  You can also tell the Engineer what the Contractor claims and get their answer - the ones I have used  usually have a good answer.  Good luck.

-------------------------------------------
Adam Trott AIA
Owner
Adam J. Trott Architect
Erie PA
-------------------------------------------

I get that response all the time from contractors. I advise holding to the structural engineer's design and specifications. If the contractor aggressively disagrees, then offer to them the option of taking full responsibility for the structural integrity of the building, for the life of the building and get it in writing... then see what they say.

-------------------------------------------
Jon Dick AIA
Architect
Archaeo Architects
Santa Fe NM
-------------------------------------------

A classic case of the contractor wanting to skimp on footing design was when a guy told me, "I've been building houses since the 80s and I have never made the footings that big." I simply said, " the code has changed quite a bit in the last 30 years."

Just because inspectors in a certain area have let footing design slide for many years, doesn't mean the engineer isn't still held to the standard of the current code. The IRC and the IBC do have different standards when it comes to footing design, and some engineers are used to commercial standards, so they tend to overdo it on houses. Make sure you hire the right engineer for the job if you don't want your client blowing their whole budget underground if it's not necessary.

-------------------------------------------
Eric Rawlings AIA
Owner
Rawlings Design, Inc.
Decatur GA
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 09-26-2014 10:06
From: Jon Dick
Subject: Working with Structural Engineers

I get that response all the time from contractors. I advise holding to the structural engineer's design and specifications. If the contractor aggressively disagrees, then offer to them the option of taking full responsibility for the structural integrity of the building, for the life of the building and get it in writing... then see what they say.

-------------------------------------------
Jon Dick AIA
Architect
Archaeo Architects
Santa Fe NM
-------------------------------------------

Lisa:
The only thing I would add to the very sage advise already proffered is to go back to your Engineer and review his design to be sure he did not over design.
Other than that you have gotten wise counsel. All too often we allow the supposedly wizened builder to bully through what we know is right.
Good Luck

-------------------------------------------
Burton L. Roslyn, FAIA
President
Roslyn Consultants, LLC
Roslyn Heights, New York
-------------------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 09-29-2014 18:46
From: Eric Rawlings
Subject: Working with Structural Engineers

A classic case of the contractor wanting to skimp on footing design was when a guy told me, "I've been building houses since the 80s and I have never made the footings that big." I simply said, " the code has changed quite a bit in the last 30 years."

Just because inspectors in a certain area have let footing design slide for many years, doesn't mean the engineer isn't still held to the standard of the current code. The IRC and the IBC do have different standards when it comes to footing design, and some engineers are used to commercial standards, so they tend to overdo it on houses. Make sure you hire the right engineer for the job if you don't want your client blowing their whole budget underground if it's not necessary.

-------------------------------------------
Eric Rawlings AIA
Owner
Rawlings Design, Inc.
Decatur GA
-------------------------------------------

I have found it to be common for residential contractors to second guess the architecture and engineering on a project (especially to someone new to being on their own and let be honest to a female). I would be cautious and not agree to any changes based simply on a builder's past experiences. You and the engineer are the professionals on the project - you two are the ones taking into account the current codes and the liability in those regards. I would let the contractor know you respect his or her opinion but that you'd like things built as drawn as making changes mid construction could lead to many unnecessary problems. There are engineers who round up on structure. Take this into consideration for the future and perhaps "shop" other partnerships for any upcoming work.

-------------------------------------------
Leslie Schneeberger AIA
Schneeberger Group LLC
Harwich MA
-------------------------------------------