Historic Resources Committee

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Historic Resources Committee and Committee on Design .
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I am not sure how this works but here is a concern.  I live in a fourth tier, mid-sized, city where renovation in the central city has been catapulted by the opportunities provided by historic rehabilitation tax credits.  Here is my basic concern:

Because of the mass of structures (warehouses) being converted to housing, the goals of developers and the limitations of "appropriate design" as defined by the state and national rehabilitation tax credit reviewers, there is an excessive number of residential units this area which are being built and designed without windows or visual connection to the outdoors, except via light tubes and skylights.

I recently glanced at a warehouse renovation design being reviewed by the city which has approximately 144 units, 44 with windows, 100 without windows.

I'm curious.  Is this appalling to others?  Is this typical of the state of residential design in other urban areas of the country or just a local vernacular created by a small but predominant market group?   

I would appreciate the opportunity to read opinions of others.

Thanks
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David Johannas AIA
Johannas Design Group
Richmond VA
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I suspect that what will be appalling is the money the developer will lose when he cannot sell the units.  Bad design is bad design, and the market usually wins out.

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Elaine Adams AIA
Denver CO
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Interesting, I would think that might be a code issue.

I certainly wouldn't call Richmond a "fourth tier" city. It's a great city with wonderful housing stock, which makes this all the more ironic.

(The grass is always greener.)

Robert Claiborne

 

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Robert Claiborne AIA
Ayers/Saint/Gross Architects & Planners
Baltimore MD
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Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2011 10:27
From: Elaine Adams
Subject: Housing design/renovation

I suspect that what will be appalling is the money the developer will lose when he cannot sell the units.  Bad design is bad design, and the market usually wins out.

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Elaine Adams AIA
Denver CO
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Regardless of what Code may allow there, it can't be good sustainability practice in a residential building to use artificial means to replace the natural light and fresh air provided by windows. 








Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2011 10:27
From: Elaine Adams
Subject: Housing design/renovation

I suspect that what will be appalling is the money the developer will lose when he cannot sell the units.  Bad design is bad design, and the market usually wins out.

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Elaine Adams AIA
Denver CO
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I am not condoning the windowless bedrooms, but would like to point out that in many retrofit buildings, there are non-full height walls that are constructed to allow for ventilation and I suppose, some natural light. Usually these non-full height walled bedrooms also do not include the usual door/doorways; instead the room has just a large opening. Presumably, egress is provided for, as well as ventilation.

Loft buildings in NY often have this type of 'bedroom'...

HTH,

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Mary Colette Wallace Assoc. AIA
President
The Wallace Research Group
Bellevue WA
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Original Message:
Sent: 04-08-2011 19:24
From: Joseph Catalano
Subject: Housing design/renovation

Regardless of what Code may allow there, it can't be good sustainability practice in a residential building to use artificial means to replace the natural light and fresh air provided by windows. 

Further, on most old industrial buildings the windows are a character-defining element and an integral part of how the building is "read" architectonically. My experience with the building type, California OHP and the Tax Incentive program is that in subdividing the open floor spaces into "cellular" living units, it is important to maintain a big legible piece of architectonic "reading" inside each unit. Most typically this includes structural elements, exterior wall and windows.

Losing these characteristics would not be "appropriate design," if that's what happened. However courtyards as suggested by Mr.Winkler certainly could be, under Adaptive Reuse provisions of the Secretary of the Interior's Standards. Would be more humane too, I suspect. Not just as much floor space to sell.  

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Joseph Catalano AIA
Sierra Madre CA
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Mary, how about taking it one step futher.  How do you feel about windowless apartments?

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David Johannas AIA
Johannas Design Group
Richmond VA
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Original Message:
Sent: 04-18-2011 14:25
From: Mary Colette Wallace
Subject: Housing design/renovation

I am not condoning the windowless bedrooms, but would like to point out that in many retrofit buildings, there are non-full height walls that are constructed to allow for ventilation and I suppose, some natural light. Usually these non-full height walled bedrooms also do not include the usual door/doorways; instead the room has just a large opening. Presumably, egress is provided for, as well as ventilation.

Loft buildings in NY often have this type of 'bedroom'...

HTH,

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Mary Colette Wallace Assoc. AIA
President
The Wallace Research Group
Bellevue WA
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Original Message:
Sent: 04-08-2011 19:24
From: Joseph Catalano
Subject: Housing design/renovation

Regardless of what Code may allow there, it can't be good sustainability practice in a residential building to use artificial means to replace the natural light and fresh air provided by windows. 

Further, on most old industrial buildings the windows are a character-defining element and an integral part of how the building is "read" architectonically. My experience with the building type, California OHP and the Tax Incentive program is that in subdividing the open floor spaces into "cellular" living units, it is important to maintain a big legible piece of architectonic "reading" inside each unit. Most typically this includes structural elements, exterior wall and windows.

Losing these characteristics would not be "appropriate design," if that's what happened. However courtyards as suggested by Mr.Winkler certainly could be, under Adaptive Reuse provisions of the Secretary of the Interior's Standards. Would be more humane too, I suspect. Not just as much floor space to sell.  

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Joseph Catalano AIA
Sierra Madre CA
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The words 'horrifying' and / or 'disgusting' came to mind immediately upon reading the initial post.
Windowless bedrooms are so inhumane (except for shelter-in-place disaster rooms) that it is difficult
to believe that local/state/regional/national codes would allow anywhere for any reason.

I agree with the person who posted the thought about whether these would sell...and the resulting
reality-hit for the developer.

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Mary Colette Wallace Assoc. AIA
President
The Wallace Research Group
Bellevue WA
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Original Message:
Sent: 04-19-2011 09:48
From: David Johannas
Subject: Housing design/renovation


Mary, how about taking it one step futher.  How do you feel about windowless apartments?

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David Johannas AIA
Johannas Design Group
Richmond VA
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In my opinion, no windows is terrible design. There are multitudes of downtown lofts here in LA, and as far as I know and have seen, they all have windows. In fact, the more and bigger the windows, the better they seem to sell. A very lrage skylight might be some compensation for no windows - but a sky tube skylight or artificail light only - yuk.    

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Craig Mount AIA
AECOM
Los Angeles CA
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Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2011 10:27
From: Elaine Adams
Subject: Housing design/renovation

I suspect that what will be appalling is the money the developer will lose when he cannot sell the units.  Bad design is bad design, and the market usually wins out.

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Elaine Adams AIA
Denver CO
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Richard Linderman AIA
Principal
The Linderman Group Architects, Inc.
Media PA
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Despicable as a windowless apartments sounds, the ICC codes permit this provided the building meets the exceptions in SECTION 1029 EMERGENCY ESCAPE AND RESCUE of the IBC, and meets mechanical ventilation in accordance with the International Mechanical Code as permitted by SECTION 1203 VENTILATION 1203.1 of the IBC.

That said, a windowless apartment might not be that bad if privacy or security is an issue, or if the surrounds are particularly noisy and unattractive. If an apartment in such surroundings had windows, chances are the tenants would always have their drapes drawn anyway.






Original Message:
Sent: 04-07-2011 10:27
From: Elaine Adams
Subject: Housing design/renovation

I suspect that what will be appalling is the money the developer will lose when he cannot sell the units.  Bad design is bad design, and the market usually wins out.

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Elaine Adams AIA
Denver CO
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Why is this an historic issue?  This is as despicable today as it was 100 years ago, 200 years ago...  Modern codes may allow light and ventilation to be artificial, but power is tenuous when nature and man conspire.

Proper reading of the ICC, NFPA and NEC code indicates that emergency generator power is required whenever power is used to overcome common sense.

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Henry Fostel, AIA
Towson MD
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Original Message:
Sent: 04-12-2011 11:26
From: Richard Linderman
Subject: Housing design/renovation



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Richard Linderman AIA
Principal
The Linderman Group Architects, Inc.
Media PA
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Despicable as a windowless apartments sounds, the ICC codes permit this provided the building meets the exceptions in SECTION 1029 EMERGENCY ESCAPE AND RESCUE of the IBC, and meets mechanical ventilation in accordance with the International Mechanical Code as permitted by SECTION 1203 VENTILATION 1203.1 of the IBC.

That said, a windowless apartment might not be that bad if privacy or security is an issue, or if the surrounds are particularly noisy and unattractive. If an apartment in such surroundings had windows, chances are the tenants would always have their drapes drawn anyway.

David -

I agree that this is quite poor design, and bordering on not meeting the building code. 

Unfortunately, although many think that the code requires windows in living spaces or sleeping rooms, it actually allows natural or artificial light and ventilation to living areas.  Egress is accommodated through multiple exits on a large apartment/ condo building.  The Fair Housing Act may also require windows, but older buildings like these mills are exempt from this.

This being said, it is quite disturbing that living units would be built like this.  I have done a number of large scale mill rehabilitation/ conversion projects in Rhode Island using State and Federal Tax Credits.  Although individual State Historic Preservation Officers do apply the Secretary of the Interior's Standards in differing ways, I have always been able to find appropriate ways of introducing adequate windows into the building, creating interior courtyards if necessary.

Developers are driven by the market demands, and I am surprised that the local market will bear units with these low quality living conditions.  If people fail to rent/ buy the units, the quality of the design will improve.

Hopefully they can find more creative ways of giving these old structures new uses. 

Good Luck.

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Scott Winkler AIA
Architect
The Constellation Center
Attleboro MA
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