Historic Resources Committee

Does anyone have experience in drying out a long-abandoned masonry building? The subject building is a former apartment building, northeast US urban setting, seven stories tall, about 3500 square feet per floor. Masonry walls, steel structure, cinder concrete floor slabs. Lots of roof leaks over time. There is some extensive water damage on the upper floors which has deteriorated the cinder concrete floor slabs; this has also corroded the steel structure in some places. The structural report also indicates that the building must be dried out over a period of up to 8 months; the preliminary cost estimate, when deconstructed, proposes using gasoline-fired heaters and fans, for 8 months, with 24-hour monitoring, at a total cost of 1.3 million dollars. This seems insane. Does anyone have any experience with this? I've worked on abandoned buildings, but have never had to do a specific drying-out exercise anything like this (or maybe we should have - who knew?)

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Katherine Dowdell AIA
Principal
Farragut Street Architects
Philadelphia PA
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According to guidance and standards for drying flood damaged buildings: bd2760: does not recommend fuel based heaters as they add to the drying time. The document lists dessicant and refrigerant dehumidification combined with heating and fans. Link to the uk document referenced.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6326/1773816.pdf

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Wm Le Roy AIA

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William Le Roy AIA
BELL Architects
Silver Spring MD

A precautionary warning...once you have it dried out...and as Jim says a lot of work can take place in the process of drying...if you don't keep it conditioned (heated especially) expect all of your new finishes to be failing in big potato chip sized peels by the end of the first heating season. Good luck! 8-12 months is about right if you continue conditioning and don't try to do finishes for at least 18mos. Why continuous monitoring? That can and should be done remotely, when other work is not underway.

Charles A Phillips, AIA, AIC-pa

433 Phillips Rd
Nacogdoches, Tx 75964


640 Brookstown Ave
Winston Salem, NC 27101


caparch@conservearchitecture.com
336-918-3668

From iPhone

------Original Message------

According to guidance and standards for drying flood damaged buildings: bd2760: does not recommend fuel based heaters as they add to the drying time. The document lists dessicant and refrigerant dehumidification combined with heating and fans. Link to the uk document referenced.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6326/1773816.pdf

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View this on Www >

Wm Le Roy AIA

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William Le Roy AIA
BELL Architects
Silver Spring MD
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In Santa Fe NM (7000 ft, very low humidity), we ran fans for 10 months to dry a brick masonry/ lime mortar structure that had been taking on water for two decades.  In difficult locations, dehumidifiers have been used.

Time, rather than intense heat, did the trick.

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Victor Johnson AIA
Victor Johnson Architect LLC
PO Box 1866
Santa Fe NM. 87504

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2016 15:32
From: Charles Phillips
Subject: Drying out a masonry building

A precautionary warning...once you have it dried out...and as Jim says a lot of work can take place in the process of drying...if you don't keep it conditioned (heated especially) expect all of your new finishes to be failing in big potato chip sized peels by the end of the first heating season. Good luck! 8-12 months is about right if you continue conditioning and don't try to do finishes for at least 18mos. Why continuous monitoring? That can and should be done remotely, when other work is not underway.

Charles A Phillips, AIA, AIC-pa

433 Phillips Rd
Nacogdoches, Tx 75964


640 Brookstown Ave
Winston Salem, NC 27101


caparch@conservearchitecture.com
336-918-3668

From iPhone

Edward Crocker of Crocker Ltd. in Santa Fe has such experience, especially with earthen buildings.

Sent from my iPhone

------Original Message------

Does anyone have experience in drying out a long-abandoned masonry building? The subject building is a former apartment building, northeast US urban setting, seven stories tall, about 3500 square feet per floor. Masonry walls, steel structure, cinder concrete floor slabs. Lots of roof leaks over time. There is some extensive water damage on the upper floors which has deteriorated the cinder concrete floor slabs; this has also corroded the steel structure in some places. The structural report also indicates that the building must be dried out over a period of up to 8 months; the preliminary cost estimate, when deconstructed, proposes using gasoline-fired heaters and fans, for 8 months, with 24-hour monitoring, at a total cost of 1.3 million dollars. This seems insane. Does anyone have any experience with this? I've worked on abandoned buildings, but have never had to do a specific drying-out exercise anything like this (or maybe we should have - who knew?)

------------------------------
Katherine Dowdell AIA
Principal
Farragut Street Architects
Philadelphia PA
------------------------------

------Original Message------

Does anyone have experience in drying out a long-abandoned masonry building? The subject building is a former apartment building, northeast US urban setting, seven stories tall, about 3500 square feet per floor. Masonry walls, steel structure, cinder concrete floor slabs. Lots of roof leaks over time. There is some extensive water damage on the upper floors which has deteriorated the cinder concrete floor slabs; this has also corroded the steel structure in some places. The structural report also indicates that the building must be dried out over a period of up to 8 months; the preliminary cost estimate, when deconstructed, proposes using gasoline-fired heaters and fans, for 8 months, with 24-hour monitoring, at a total cost of 1.3 million dollars. This seems insane. Does anyone have any experience with this? I've worked on abandoned buildings, but have never had to do a specific drying-out exercise anything like this (or maybe we should have - who knew?)

------------------------------
Katherine Dowdell AIA
Principal
Farragut Street Architects
Philadelphia PA
------------------------------

Here it is February, and you might be tempted to get things done quickly, but beware.. if you're using heat, don't rush it!  One building I worked on--after a flood--it was dried out too quickly and at too high a heat.  The floors were heavy T&G structural plank, and within days, the shrinkage was severe...not just across the thickness and width as might be expected, but along the lengths as well.  All curled up.  Wall finishes suffered tool.  What a mess!  "TTT", Things Take Time

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James Rhodes FAIA
Beacon NY

Original Message:
Sent: 02-10-2016 19:41
From: James Rhodes
Subject: Drying out a masonry building

Yes, in the 1980's I oversaw the drying out of the long-abandoned Main Building on Ellis Island, a brick building of more than 200,000 square feet.  We built a scaffold with furnaces mounted on the exterior including large round flexible ducts connected to collars in the windows that we could drag around to individual rooms.  Worked well in cold weather whereby heated outside air is introduced very dry and pressurizes the interior, allowing massive controlled exfiltration / release through windows and doors.  Interior conditions were monitored during normal hours daily and the big flexible ducts and fans could be quickly and easily dragged to new locations until, by the warm season, real progress was made.

Sorry I can't give you the costs or particulars about how the unions and trades handled it, but the process was very effective, and no fired equipment on the interior.  Remember that burning of fuel can itself be a source of moisture (e.g. "salamanders").  Working conditions were very pleasant and a lot of cleaning, demo and prep got done.  But by summer, this technique is insufferable.  

James W. Rhodes, FAIA

Beacon, NY

jrhodes@preservationdesign.com

http://www.preservationdesign.com/

Ms. Dowdell ---

Hello

Wow!  Sounds like very-mid-century construction...maybe 1930s?  While I do small projects, I've had too much experience w/ super-neglected buildings (occasionally, the first question is, "Could we discuss this outside?").

My first impression would be; If you have a very-committed Owner, give it its finish, top-quality --- future-green? --- roof (w/ speculative box-outs for future penetrations), and then:

1.     Strip ALL interior finishes.

2.     Board-up / secure exterior.

3.     Replace some windows w/ (used?) storm-proof louvers.  Add fans as needed.

4.     Remove worst areas of slabs, steel frame, as appropriate, new bracing as needed.

5.     Monitor...  Block louvers, + minimum heat (salamanders?), as need for sub-freezing weather.   

Best of luck; this sounds like an "interesting" (uh-oh) project.  But if you come out the other side intact, think of the stories, and the portfolio...

Bill Devlin

william j. devlin aia, inc.,

ARCHITECT

Springfield, MA

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William Devlin AIA
William J. Devlin, AIA, Inc.
Springfield MA

I agree with the earlier comments about gasoline fueled salamanders. My understanding is that they produce a gallon of water for every gallon of fuel. They will not dry out the building. Time for a new consultant.

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William Badger AIA
Badger and Associates, Inc.
Manchester Center VT

If you have electricity, try using dehumidifiers. They do the trick very well! Rent a few and experiment.

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Leslie Humphrey
Square Peg Construction inc.
Asheville NC

Original Message:
Sent: 02-11-2016 07:31
From: William Badger
Subject: Drying out a masonry building

I agree with the earlier comments about gasoline fueled salamanders. My understanding is that they produce a gallon of water for every gallon of fuel. They will not dry out the building. Time for a new consultant.

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William Badger AIA
Badger and Associates, Inc.
Manchester Center VT

Looks like we all should go into the drying business!

Charles A Phillips, AIA, AIC-pa

433 Phillips Rd
Nacogdoches, Tx 75964


640 Brookstown Ave
Winston Salem, NC 27101


caparch@conservearchitecture.com
336-918-3668

From iPhone

------Original Message------

Does anyone have experience in drying out a long-abandoned masonry building? The subject building is a former apartment building, northeast US urban setting, seven stories tall, about 3500 square feet per floor. Masonry walls, steel structure, cinder concrete floor slabs. Lots of roof leaks over time. There is some extensive water damage on the upper floors which has deteriorated the cinder concrete floor slabs; this has also corroded the steel structure in some places. The structural report also indicates that the building must be dried out over a period of up to 8 months; the preliminary cost estimate, when deconstructed, proposes using gasoline-fired heaters and fans, for 8 months, with 24-hour monitoring, at a total cost of 1.3 million dollars. This seems insane. Does anyone have any experience with this? I've worked on abandoned buildings, but have never had to do a specific drying-out exercise anything like this (or maybe we should have - who knew?)

------------------------------
Katherine Dowdell AIA
Principal
Farragut Street Architects
Philadelphia PA
------------------------------

------Original Message------

Looks like we all should go into the drying business!

Charles A Phillips, AIA, AIC-pa

433 Phillips Rd
Nacogdoches, Tx 75964


640 Brookstown Ave
Winston Salem, NC 27101


caparch@conservearchitecture.com
336-918-3668

From iPhone

------Original Message------

------Original Message------

Does anyone have experience in drying out a long-abandoned masonry building? The subject building is a former apartment building, northeast US urban setting, seven stories tall, about 3500 square feet per floor. Masonry walls, steel structure, cinder concrete floor slabs. Lots of roof leaks over time. There is some extensive water damage on the upper floors which has deteriorated the cinder concrete floor slabs; this has also corroded the steel structure in some places. The structural report also indicates that the building must be dried out over a period of up to 8 months; the preliminary cost estimate, when deconstructed, proposes using gasoline-fired heaters and fans, for 8 months, with 24-hour monitoring, at a total cost of 1.3 million dollars. This seems insane. Does anyone have any experience with this? I've worked on abandoned buildings, but have never had to do a specific drying-out exercise anything like this (or maybe we should have - who knew?)

------------------------------
Katherine Dowdell AIA
Principal
Farragut Street Architects
Philadelphia PA
------------------------------