Technology in Architectural Practice

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Center for Integrated Practice and Technology in Architectural Practice .
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Have you registered for the September 14th webinar titled - 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis. If not click here to learn more and register.
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Brian Skripac Assoc. AIA
Director of Digital Practice
Astorino
Pittsburgh PA
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A question posed to the presenters: What hurdles must be overcome to make BIM and cost estimating common practice? What is your response? ------------------------------------------- Kathleen Simpson The American Institute of Architects Washington DC -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 08-29-2012 11:25 From: Brian Skripac Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Center for Integrated Practice and Technology in Architectural Practice . ------------------------------------------- Have you registered for the September 14th webinar titled - 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis. If not http://network.aia.org/technologyinarchitecturalpractice/Events/EventDescription/?CalendarEventKey=ceb24c66-0207-437b-9700-a95c0d9b892d to learn more and register. ------------------------------------------- Brian Skripac Assoc. AIA Director of Digital Practice Astorino Pittsburgh PA -------------------------------------------

Hello Kathleen, Brian and others,

Unless you yourselves are licensed, practicing architects, you will not fully understand the implications of representing cost estimating to a client.  Doing so places yourself squarely in their gunsights, when their budget goes over.  It is dangerous to offer a cost estimate.  Better to let those who build do that; they are the ones who have to sign their names to the agreement to build it for a certain amount.  Also, clients do not want to accept responsibility for what they want pushing costs over their limit and will question anything other than a contractor's bid that illustrates that.  So, better to let these touchy issues remain in the laps of the people who built it.  Not to mention the liability aspects of having your estimate proven inaccurate and having the client looking at you to fill in the missed item.  Toxic and unwise. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-29-2012 23:28
From: Kathleen Simpson
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

A question posed to the presenters:

What hurdles must be overcome to make BIM and cost estimating common practice?

What is your response?

-------------------------------------------
Kathleen Simpson
The American Institute of Architects
Washington DC
-------------------------------------------

Having practiced for going on forty years and have been a firm managing principal for two successful firms for over fifteen years.  I like a lot of people have watched the profession slip.  This is one certain way to end up with architects being employed by contractors instead of maintaining our independence.  I have been chair of the Iowa Construction Industry Forum for almost 20 years (AIA Iowa, CEC of Iowa and Master Builders of Iowa) and one of the MBI presidents said it well, the contractors are not stealing our role - we are giving it to them to avoid risk and conflict.  We don't want to deal with construction administration on complicated projects so they step and do it, we don't want to provide budget numbers so they step in and do it and we don't want to tell our clients bad news so they step in between and worse we don't want to control ourselves and just design away they will step in and do it.
If you cannot develop a reasonable statement of probable cost hire someone to do it for you, it is a marketing expense. Easy way is to develop a relationship with a contractor who can help based on other projects.  The clients need to know early in the process what the probable cost will be.  The person who will stand up and provide that information is the one who they will look for manage the project for them.  If the architect will not do that then the contractor who will give them a number will be running the project.
After you give them the number - you need to design within that budget.  Making hard decisions, telling the client that some items are not in the scope and it they want them the budget needs to go up or they need to cut something else.  These are painful but I have found when you lay the facts out for them to decide they end up respecting you.  It also means that the great idea you come up with that is not within the budget either remains an missed opportunity or you need to sell the added value.
Yes giving providing a probable cost is a risk but it is part of being a professional.  Professional liability insurance is there for the big blunders or bad clients.  They will help you avoid paying explaining things like unfair enrichment unless you a negligent then they will help you pay.  Of course too many blunders and no more insurance.
-------------------------------------------
Robert Carlson AIA
Principal
Carlson Design Team PC
Iowa City IA
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-30-2012 10:42
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hello Kathleen, Brian and others,

Unless you yourselves are licensed, practicing architects, you will not fully understand the implications of representing cost estimating to a client.  Doing so places yourself squarely in their gunsights, when their budget goes over.  It is dangerous to offer a cost estimate.  Better to let those who build do that; they are the ones who have to sign their names to the agreement to build it for a certain amount.  Also, clients do not want to accept responsibility for what they want pushing costs over their limit and will question anything other than a contractor's bid that illustrates that.  So, better to let these touchy issues remain in the laps of the people who built it.  Not to mention the liability aspects of having your estimate proven inaccurate and having the client looking at you to fill in the missed item.  Toxic and unwise. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

Agreed regarding the responsibility and liability issues raised. However, the potential of 5D is significant to advance the design and construction process. How can those in estimating firms integrate into the process with architects so the client receives an unbiased opinion of cost as opposed to their constructor may provide?

-------------------------------------------
Ward Simpson AIA
Phoenix AZ
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-30-2012 10:42
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hello Kathleen, Brian and others,

Unless you yourselves are licensed, practicing architects, you will not fully understand the implications of representing cost estimating to a client.  Doing so places yourself squarely in their gunsights, when their budget goes over.  It is dangerous to offer a cost estimate.  Better to let those who build do that; they are the ones who have to sign their names to the agreement to build it for a certain amount.  Also, clients do not want to accept responsibility for what they want pushing costs over their limit and will question anything other than a contractor's bid that illustrates that.  So, better to let these touchy issues remain in the laps of the people who built it.  Not to mention the liability aspects of having your estimate proven inaccurate and having the client looking at you to fill in the missed item.  Toxic and unwise. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

If I read it correctly, I think the earlier post is talking about 'design cost' not building cost. ie. estimating the cost of design to the firm to implement BIM practice in the project.

For building cost, there are cost consultants or quantity surveyor in the market, who could provide the service of building cost estimation. As professional we need to know where our limitations are and seek the service of external consultants. where the need arises. Where ball park number is requested and you have the historical data to back you up, it would still be prudent to put in a disclaimer if you are inclined to put down a number.

One of the biggest hurdles to BIM entering main stream practice is allocation of the cost of BIM. Who bears the cost of implementing it? The party that derives the most benefits is the general contractor and the owner followed by the architect and finally the other consultants. Without BIM, consultants puts together the construction documentation after the due process of design from concept to DD. BIM modeling forces early definition of details and it comes with a cost to the consultants. Nailing down the cost of BIM is a start to seeking a way to allocate the cost of BIM among the 'key stakeholders' in the projects. A consensus must be established before a market norm can be developed over time. Would the user pay principle work here? Or is there a better cost allocation mechanism?

The other is the copyright issue - who owns the BIM model at each stage of the project and how it changes, if at all, in the entire project cycle? Who is the best party to control/ manage the BIM model over the various stages of the project cycle? Does the copyright to the BIM model transfer to the owner on project close-out and if so should the owner pays for it since they have the benefits of using it for their property management? Or is it better covered under the fee premium they are to pay to the consultants for implementing BIM on the project? Can a party to the project re-use an assembly of BIM model parts they had jointly developed on their other project?

Technological limitation is another. BIM models are heavy files and can get rather unwieldy. The number of people who could work on the model concurrently at any one time is also limited. Periodic BIM model maintenance is critical for it to work well as the model is being developed. It also adds to the cost of BIM. Is some BIM software better than the others in managing the complexity of BIM modeling? In the current globalized economy, a project can be conceived, designed, documented and constructed in different parts of the world. How does the BIM modeling software cope when the project team members are hailed from different parts of the world?
 
I would love to hear from others how they are coping with the above issues.

-------------------------------------------
Geok Ser Lee Intl. Assoc. AIA
Owner
GSLA
Irvine CA
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-30-2012 10:42
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hello Kathleen, Brian and others,

Unless you yourselves are licensed, practicing architects, you will not fully understand the implications of representing cost estimating to a client.  Doing so places yourself squarely in their gunsights, when their budget goes over.  It is dangerous to offer a cost estimate.  Better to let those who build do that; they are the ones who have to sign their names to the agreement to build it for a certain amount.  Also, clients do not want to accept responsibility for what they want pushing costs over their limit and will question anything other than a contractor's bid that illustrates that.  So, better to let these touchy issues remain in the laps of the people who built it.  Not to mention the liability aspects of having your estimate proven inaccurate and having the client looking at you to fill in the missed item.  Toxic and unwise. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

Rand, how do you propose to design to a budget without going through the estimating process?

-------------------------------------------
Sean Catherall AIA
Integrated Property Services
Bluffdale UT
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-30-2012 10:42
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hello Kathleen, Brian and others,

Unless you yourselves are licensed, practicing architects, you will not fully understand the implications of representing cost estimating to a client.  Doing so places yourself squarely in their gunsights, when their budget goes over.  It is dangerous to offer a cost estimate.  Better to let those who build do that; they are the ones who have to sign their names to the agreement to build it for a certain amount.  Also, clients do not want to accept responsibility for what they want pushing costs over their limit and will question anything other than a contractor's bid that illustrates that.  So, better to let these touchy issues remain in the laps of the people who built it.  Not to mention the liability aspects of having your estimate proven inaccurate and having the client looking at you to fill in the missed item.  Toxic and unwise. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

Hi Sean,
I guess I have been around long enough and designed and managed enough projects that I know what $XXX/sf means and what it is likely to include and to arrange my design and specifications to align with that.  Any architect who has similar experience will likely be able to do the same.  Also, I now package my bidding format to include multiple Owner Optional Upgrades (no more than 10) that are not part of the Base Bid, to guard what I know will be a smaller bid price without all the bells & whistles.  So: the contractor prices the Base Bid and the options separately and the options are like an ala carte menu from which the client can choose his dessert items.  It takes more work to package projects this way, but in my opinion, it is well worth it, and protects both the client from his own expensive wishes and the architect from accusations and helps insure at least a Base Bid project that works for everyone.

My point is that if we, as architects, are so bold and foolish enough to actually tell clients that their project will cost $YYY to build, we are setting ourselves up for real world problems and liability beyond E&O insurance.  Some insurers won't insure you if you do create cost estimates for clients.  Once again, clients will not accept responsibility for the goodies they want; it's just human nature.  Better to have the contractor weigh in and provide any estimates and let them enjoy all the responsibility this entails.  Architects design.  Builders build.  Or at least, that's the way it should be. 

Somewhere in the middle is the costing and if want to accept that role, we are accepting a huge amount of legal responsibility that we really are not equipped to handle.  I used to perform estimates, long ago, which is why I know what I am talking about.  Even for my large governmental clients.  I would carefully quiz various suppliers and subcontractors and general contractors to get what I thought were reliable numbers.  On one particular estimate, I had an extremely detailed estimate and I was very proud of the research I had done and knew that it was right.  Well, when the time came for real bids from contractors, sure enough, my total number was low and I had an angry and powerful client.  The culprit turned out to be large outdoor air-conditioning cooling towers.  The number given to me by the supplier was just dead wrong.  I had done my research, so I was not to blame, yet my estimate was too low and a large governmental agency was not pleased.  Very bad things could have happened.  I was blessed to get through that situation, but it could have easily turned out to be otherwise.

If any of you wish to put yourselves in this situation, go ahead and enjoy.  Personally, I rather be able to sleep at night and let the people who are providing the physical product provide the number to accomplish that. I do wish you well.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-31-2012 16:03
From: Sean Catherall
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Rand, how do you propose to design to a budget without going through the estimating process?

-------------------------------------------
Sean Catherall AIA
Integrated Property Services
Bluffdale UT
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-30-2012 10:42
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hello Kathleen, Brian and others,

Unless you yourselves are licensed, practicing architects, you will not fully understand the implications of representing cost estimating to a client.  Doing so places yourself squarely in their gunsights, when their budget goes over.  It is dangerous to offer a cost estimate.  Better to let those who build do that; they are the ones who have to sign their names to the agreement to build it for a certain amount.  Also, clients do not want to accept responsibility for what they want pushing costs over their limit and will question anything other than a contractor's bid that illustrates that.  So, better to let these touchy issues remain in the laps of the people who built it.  Not to mention the liability aspects of having your estimate proven inaccurate and having the client looking at you to fill in the missed item.  Toxic and unwise. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

Rand,

I guess I don't see the difference between an architect's estimate and a design budget accepted by the architect. If I know my design is within the budget, then I've just estimated its costs, have I not? And is it not necessary to communicate that information to the client, creating the risk you're worried about? Even if it's something as simple as: "Can this design be built within my budget?" "Yes," that constitutes an estimate. How can a client rely upon our ability to design within a budget if we don't do that?

(I'm not a big proponent of managing risk by reducing services, nor of limiting what we do in order to keep insurance premiums low. I think those reductions and limitations are the mileposts on the path that got us to our current near-irrelevance in the construction industry. I guess I'm trying to figure out the dividing line between what our clients expect of us and what is unreasonably risky. I have a hunch that "no estimating" is not the correct limit because it is a common sense and contractual requirement of the designer. I know that cost estimating is not a strength of many architects, but it can become a strength with the right experience, training and partnering.)

-------------------------------------------
Sean Catherall AIA
Integrated Property Services
Bluffdale UT
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2012 08:02
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hi Sean,
I guess I have been around long enough and designed and managed enough projects that I know what $XXX/sf means and what it is likely to include and to arrange my design and specifications to align with that.  Any architect who has similar experience will likely be able to do the same.  Also, I now package my bidding format to include multiple Owner Optional Upgrades (no more than 10) that are not part of the Base Bid, to guard what I know will be a smaller bid price without all the bells & whistles.  So: the contractor prices the Base Bid and the options separately and the options are like an ala carte menu from which the client can choose his dessert items.  It takes more work to package projects this way, but in my opinion, it is well worth it, and protects both the client from his own expensive wishes and the architect from accusations and helps insure at least a Base Bid project that works for everyone.

My point is that if we, as architects, are so bold and foolish enough to actually tell clients that their project will cost $YYY to build, we are setting ourselves up for real world problems and liability beyond E&O insurance.  Some insurers won't insure you if you do create cost estimates for clients.  Once again, clients will not accept responsibility for the goodies they want; it's just human nature.  Better to have the contractor weigh in and provide any estimates and let them enjoy all the responsibility this entails.  Architects design.  Builders build.  Or at least, that's the way it should be. 

Somewhere in the middle is the costing and if want to accept that role, we are accepting a huge amount of legal responsibility that we really are not equipped to handle.  I used to perform estimates, long ago, which is why I know what I am talking about.  Even for my large governmental clients.  I would carefully quiz various suppliers and subcontractors and general contractors to get what I thought were reliable numbers.  On one particular estimate, I had an extremely detailed estimate and I was very proud of the research I had done and knew that it was right.  Well, when the time came for real bids from contractors, sure enough, my total number was low and I had an angry and powerful client.  The culprit turned out to be large outdoor air-conditioning cooling towers.  The number given to me by the supplier was just dead wrong.  I had done my research, so I was not to blame, yet my estimate was too low and a large governmental agency was not pleased.  Very bad things could have happened.  I was blessed to get through that situation, but it could have easily turned out to be otherwise.

If any of you wish to put yourselves in this situation, go ahead and enjoy.  Personally, I rather be able to sleep at night and let the people who are providing the physical product provide the number to accomplish that. I do wish you well.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

Rand,
I once received an estimate for fireglass and safety glazing from a vendor that was far from what the real bid turned out to be.  The client was not pleased and questioned my adding cost for a code issue that had not yet been fully adopted.
Frank

-------------------------------------------
Frank Marshall AIA
Architect
SMB&R Inc
Camp Hill PA
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-04-2012 16:18
From: Sean Catherall
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Rand,

I guess I don't see the difference between an architect's estimate and a design budget accepted by the architect. If I know my design is within the budget, then I've just estimated its costs, have I not? And is it not necessary to communicate that information to the client, creating the risk you're worried about? Even if it's something as simple as: "Can this design be built within my budget?" "Yes," that constitutes an estimate. How can a client rely upon our ability to design within a budget if we don't do that?

(I'm not a big proponent of managing risk by reducing services, nor of limiting what we do in order to keep insurance premiums low. I think those reductions and limitations are the mileposts on the path that got us to our current near-irrelevance in the construction industry. I guess I'm trying to figure out the dividing line between what our clients expect of us and what is unreasonably risky. I have a hunch that "no estimating" is not the correct limit because it is a common sense and contractual requirement of the designer. I know that cost estimating is not a strength of many architects, but it can become a strength with the right experience, training and partnering.)

-------------------------------------------
Sean Catherall AIA
Integrated Property Services
Bluffdale UT
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2012 08:02
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hi Sean,
I guess I have been around long enough and designed and managed enough projects that I know what $XXX/sf means and what it is likely to include and to arrange my design and specifications to align with that.  Any architect who has similar experience will likely be able to do the same.  Also, I now package my bidding format to include multiple Owner Optional Upgrades (no more than 10) that are not part of the Base Bid, to guard what I know will be a smaller bid price without all the bells & whistles.  So: the contractor prices the Base Bid and the options separately and the options are like an ala carte menu from which the client can choose his dessert items.  It takes more work to package projects this way, but in my opinion, it is well worth it, and protects both the client from his own expensive wishes and the architect from accusations and helps insure at least a Base Bid project that works for everyone.

My point is that if we, as architects, are so bold and foolish enough to actually tell clients that their project will cost $YYY to build, we are setting ourselves up for real world problems and liability beyond E&O insurance.  Some insurers won't insure you if you do create cost estimates for clients.  Once again, clients will not accept responsibility for the goodies they want; it's just human nature.  Better to have the contractor weigh in and provide any estimates and let them enjoy all the responsibility this entails.  Architects design.  Builders build.  Or at least, that's the way it should be. 

Somewhere in the middle is the costing and if want to accept that role, we are accepting a huge amount of legal responsibility that we really are not equipped to handle.  I used to perform estimates, long ago, which is why I know what I am talking about.  Even for my large governmental clients.  I would carefully quiz various suppliers and subcontractors and general contractors to get what I thought were reliable numbers.  On one particular estimate, I had an extremely detailed estimate and I was very proud of the research I had done and knew that it was right.  Well, when the time came for real bids from contractors, sure enough, my total number was low and I had an angry and powerful client.  The culprit turned out to be large outdoor air-conditioning cooling towers.  The number given to me by the supplier was just dead wrong.  I had done my research, so I was not to blame, yet my estimate was too low and a large governmental agency was not pleased.  Very bad things could have happened.  I was blessed to get through that situation, but it could have easily turned out to be otherwise.

If any of you wish to put yourselves in this situation, go ahead and enjoy.  Personally, I rather be able to sleep at night and let the people who are providing the physical product provide the number to accomplish that. I do wish you well.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

Exactly!  Which just goes to show that doing an estimate can get an architect into trouble.
If the client wants an estimate, better to have the contractor prepare one or have your client separately pay a professional estimating company (that is not under contract with you, because you don't want that liability passed along to you).  Most clients won't pay you for your estimating efforts anyway.

Regarding the separate matter of making your design safer than what is presently required by Minimum Code, I have a section in my contract that clearly spells out to my clients that I design beyond code minimums to utilize products, systems & details that I feel prudently protects the health, safety & welfare of the client and the public.  I don't think any architect wants a client to trap him into designing just to code minimum, because we all know that codes change based on the latest disaster or energy economics, then adopt best architectural practices in future editions that any conscientious architect would try to anticipate today.  Looking back on fire codes, energy codes and other code minimums from 25 years ago, any of us would be embarrassed to have designed to those minimum standards, even back then. And being members of the AIA (the Voice of the Profession), it seems proper that we all set policies that advance the state of the art in the design of homes and buildings that leads where the building codes might be 10 years from now.  It appears that is exactly what you are doing, Frank.  Good work! 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-05-2012 07:55
From: Frank Marshall
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Rand,
I once received an estimate for fireglass and safety glazing from a vendor that was far from what the real bid turned out to be.  The client was not pleased and questioned my adding cost for a code issue that had not yet been fully adopted.
Frank

-------------------------------------------
Frank Marshall AIA
Architect
SMB&R Inc
Camp Hill PA
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-04-2012 16:18
From: Sean Catherall
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Rand,

I guess I don't see the difference between an architect's estimate and a design budget accepted by the architect. If I know my design is within the budget, then I've just estimated its costs, have I not? And is it not necessary to communicate that information to the client, creating the risk you're worried about? Even if it's something as simple as: "Can this design be built within my budget?" "Yes," that constitutes an estimate. How can a client rely upon our ability to design within a budget if we don't do that?

(I'm not a big proponent of managing risk by reducing services, nor of limiting what we do in order to keep insurance premiums low. I think those reductions and limitations are the mileposts on the path that got us to our current near-irrelevance in the construction industry. I guess I'm trying to figure out the dividing line between what our clients expect of us and what is unreasonably risky. I have a hunch that "no estimating" is not the correct limit because it is a common sense and contractual requirement of the designer. I know that cost estimating is not a strength of many architects, but it can become a strength with the right experience, training and partnering.)

-------------------------------------------
Sean Catherall AIA
Integrated Property Services
Bluffdale UT
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2012 08:02
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hi Sean,
I guess I have been around long enough and designed and managed enough projects that I know what $XXX/sf means and what it is likely to include and to arrange my design and specifications to align with that.  Any architect who has similar experience will likely be able to do the same.  Also, I now package my bidding format to include multiple Owner Optional Upgrades (no more than 10) that are not part of the Base Bid, to guard what I know will be a smaller bid price without all the bells & whistles.  So: the contractor prices the Base Bid and the options separately and the options are like an ala carte menu from which the client can choose his dessert items.  It takes more work to package projects this way, but in my opinion, it is well worth it, and protects both the client from his own expensive wishes and the architect from accusations and helps insure at least a Base Bid project that works for everyone.

My point is that if we, as architects, are so bold and foolish enough to actually tell clients that their project will cost $YYY to build, we are setting ourselves up for real world problems and liability beyond E&O insurance.  Some insurers won't insure you if you do create cost estimates for clients.  Once again, clients will not accept responsibility for the goodies they want; it's just human nature.  Better to have the contractor weigh in and provide any estimates and let them enjoy all the responsibility this entails.  Architects design.  Builders build.  Or at least, that's the way it should be. 

Somewhere in the middle is the costing and if want to accept that role, we are accepting a huge amount of legal responsibility that we really are not equipped to handle.  I used to perform estimates, long ago, which is why I know what I am talking about.  Even for my large governmental clients.  I would carefully quiz various suppliers and subcontractors and general contractors to get what I thought were reliable numbers.  On one particular estimate, I had an extremely detailed estimate and I was very proud of the research I had done and knew that it was right.  Well, when the time came for real bids from contractors, sure enough, my total number was low and I had an angry and powerful client.  The culprit turned out to be large outdoor air-conditioning cooling towers.  The number given to me by the supplier was just dead wrong.  I had done my research, so I was not to blame, yet my estimate was too low and a large governmental agency was not pleased.  Very bad things could have happened.  I was blessed to get through that situation, but it could have easily turned out to be otherwise.

If any of you wish to put yourselves in this situation, go ahead and enjoy.  Personally, I rather be able to sleep at night and let the people who are providing the physical product provide the number to accomplish that. I do wish you well.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

Hello Sean.  Estimating does Not have to be part of your contract.  Visit your attorney who specializes in design and construction and have this conversation with him.  Be careful out there.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-04-2012 16:18
From: Sean Catherall
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Rand,

I guess I don't see the difference between an architect's estimate and a design budget accepted by the architect. If I know my design is within the budget, then I've just estimated its costs, have I not? And is it not necessary to communicate that information to the client, creating the risk you're worried about? Even if it's something as simple as: "Can this design be built within my budget?" "Yes," that constitutes an estimate. How can a client rely upon our ability to design within a budget if we don't do that?

(I'm not a big proponent of managing risk by reducing services, nor of limiting what we do in order to keep insurance premiums low. I think those reductions and limitations are the mileposts on the path that got us to our current near-irrelevance in the construction industry. I guess I'm trying to figure out the dividing line between what our clients expect of us and what is unreasonably risky. I have a hunch that "no estimating" is not the correct limit because it is a common sense and contractual requirement of the designer. I know that cost estimating is not a strength of many architects, but it can become a strength with the right experience, training and partnering.)

-------------------------------------------
Sean Catherall AIA
Integrated Property Services
Bluffdale UT
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2012 08:02
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hi Sean,
I guess I have been around long enough and designed and managed enough projects that I know what $XXX/sf means and what it is likely to include and to arrange my design and specifications to align with that.  Any architect who has similar experience will likely be able to do the same.  Also, I now package my bidding format to include multiple Owner Optional Upgrades (no more than 10) that are not part of the Base Bid, to guard what I know will be a smaller bid price without all the bells & whistles.  So: the contractor prices the Base Bid and the options separately and the options are like an ala carte menu from which the client can choose his dessert items.  It takes more work to package projects this way, but in my opinion, it is well worth it, and protects both the client from his own expensive wishes and the architect from accusations and helps insure at least a Base Bid project that works for everyone.

My point is that if we, as architects, are so bold and foolish enough to actually tell clients that their project will cost $YYY to build, we are setting ourselves up for real world problems and liability beyond E&O insurance.  Some insurers won't insure you if you do create cost estimates for clients.  Once again, clients will not accept responsibility for the goodies they want; it's just human nature.  Better to have the contractor weigh in and provide any estimates and let them enjoy all the responsibility this entails.  Architects design.  Builders build.  Or at least, that's the way it should be. 

Somewhere in the middle is the costing and if want to accept that role, we are accepting a huge amount of legal responsibility that we really are not equipped to handle.  I used to perform estimates, long ago, which is why I know what I am talking about.  Even for my large governmental clients.  I would carefully quiz various suppliers and subcontractors and general contractors to get what I thought were reliable numbers.  On one particular estimate, I had an extremely detailed estimate and I was very proud of the research I had done and knew that it was right.  Well, when the time came for real bids from contractors, sure enough, my total number was low and I had an angry and powerful client.  The culprit turned out to be large outdoor air-conditioning cooling towers.  The number given to me by the supplier was just dead wrong.  I had done my research, so I was not to blame, yet my estimate was too low and a large governmental agency was not pleased.  Very bad things could have happened.  I was blessed to get through that situation, but it could have easily turned out to be otherwise.

If any of you wish to put yourselves in this situation, go ahead and enjoy.  Personally, I rather be able to sleep at night and let the people who are providing the physical product provide the number to accomplish that. I do wish you well.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

I have to agree with Sean. And as they will tell you in the finance sector: No risk, no reward. If you can quantify the risk, it's better to take it and get paid for it than avoid it and wind up looking superfluous. From a more concrete point of view, if you can tell your client what to expect financially, he will value your service much more. (Of course, you will need to prime him how to deal with the contractor during the contractor's estimating. If the contractor gets a hold of your number, his will be yours plus 20% every time.) If your client wants to decide on the scope of the project you are going to have to estimate it yourself anyway, and before you spend a lot of time in design development. In my experience the contractor has not been born who can estimate off a concept or schematic design. Usually if you drew it, he will price it. If you didn't draw it yet, it will not be in his "estimate". So if an individual architect is going to have any relevance, he needs to get very proficient at estimating at a pretty sophisticated level. As far as the profession as a whole is concerned, we are already a lost cause.

But to take up the original author's point about alternates, this is a double edged sword. It sounds like the author either enjoys very good relations with contracting companies in his area, or he is benefiting from a tough economy. In a stronger market many contractors are scared off by complicated bid documents with multiple alternates and rates. Ideally, on a project of any size, it would be a better use of the client's money and the architect's talents to identify most of those options up front, together with their cost/benefit and a source of finance. Then the design can be better attuned to deliver maximum value, with just a few alternates to manage legitimately unforeseeable on-costs. But we live in an imperfect world. The 1000-attribute approach is certainly low risk and keeps you firmly in the loop if cost begin to get out of hand. You don't want to be sidelined by the Contractor if he can persuade the Owner that your estimate was wrong instead of his price.

If you do provide estimating services make sure the Owner understands what an estimate is. Contractors love to sneer at RS Means but it is just a database of historical statistics - the average price of a project like this, but not necessarily the actual price for This Project. If you miss an estimate, did you fail to take into account something you should have known, or did something occur outside your ability to predict or foresee? Or was a wrong prediction of the actual cost still a correct prediction of the probable cost? It is important that your client know the difference. One may be negligence; another is just happenstance, or maybe even something less savory and out of public view. Be aware of the politics of the local marketplace or, to circle back to my first point, you will not correctly quantify your risk and therefore your propper fee.

-------------------------------------------
Tim Fells AIA
Director, Production + QA
Daroff Design Inc + DDI Architects, PC
New Hope PA
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-04-2012 16:18
From: Sean Catherall
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Rand,

I guess I don't see the difference between an architect's estimate and a design budget accepted by the architect. If I know my design is within the budget, then I've just estimated its costs, have I not? And is it not necessary to communicate that information to the client, creating the risk you're worried about? Even if it's something as simple as: "Can this design be built within my budget?" "Yes," that constitutes an estimate. How can a client rely upon our ability to design within a budget if we don't do that?

(I'm not a big proponent of managing risk by reducing services, nor of limiting what we do in order to keep insurance premiums low. I think those reductions and limitations are the mileposts on the path that got us to our current near-irrelevance in the construction industry. I guess I'm trying to figure out the dividing line between what our clients expect of us and what is unreasonably risky. I have a hunch that "no estimating" is not the correct limit because it is a common sense and contractual requirement of the designer. I know that cost estimating is not a strength of many architects, but it can become a strength with the right experience, training and partnering.)

-------------------------------------------
Sean Catherall AIA
Integrated Property Services
Bluffdale UT
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2012 08:02
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hi Sean,
I guess I have been around long enough and designed and managed enough projects that I know what $XXX/sf means and what it is likely to include and to arrange my design and specifications to align with that.  Any architect who has similar experience will likely be able to do the same.  Also, I now package my bidding format to include multiple Owner Optional Upgrades (no more than 10) that are not part of the Base Bid, to guard what I know will be a smaller bid price without all the bells & whistles.  So: the contractor prices the Base Bid and the options separately and the options are like an ala carte menu from which the client can choose his dessert items.  It takes more work to package projects this way, but in my opinion, it is well worth it, and protects both the client from his own expensive wishes and the architect from accusations and helps insure at least a Base Bid project that works for everyone.

My point is that if we, as architects, are so bold and foolish enough to actually tell clients that their project will cost $YYY to build, we are setting ourselves up for real world problems and liability beyond E&O insurance.  Some insurers won't insure you if you do create cost estimates for clients.  Once again, clients will not accept responsibility for the goodies they want; it's just human nature.  Better to have the contractor weigh in and provide any estimates and let them enjoy all the responsibility this entails.  Architects design.  Builders build.  Or at least, that's the way it should be. 

Somewhere in the middle is the costing and if want to accept that role, we are accepting a huge amount of legal responsibility that we really are not equipped to handle.  I used to perform estimates, long ago, which is why I know what I am talking about.  Even for my large governmental clients.  I would carefully quiz various suppliers and subcontractors and general contractors to get what I thought were reliable numbers.  On one particular estimate, I had an extremely detailed estimate and I was very proud of the research I had done and knew that it was right.  Well, when the time came for real bids from contractors, sure enough, my total number was low and I had an angry and powerful client.  The culprit turned out to be large outdoor air-conditioning cooling towers.  The number given to me by the supplier was just dead wrong.  I had done my research, so I was not to blame, yet my estimate was too low and a large governmental agency was not pleased.  Very bad things could have happened.  I was blessed to get through that situation, but it could have easily turned out to be otherwise.

If any of you wish to put yourselves in this situation, go ahead and enjoy.  Personally, I rather be able to sleep at night and let the people who are providing the physical product provide the number to accomplish that. I do wish you well.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

Building cost estimates are demanded by all our clients, who are most usually industry leaders. We have estimators in house, who work from drawings at the various design stages. The design documents are coupled with a clearly defined scope of work, depending on the stage of the project. The accuracy of the prices vary from +/- 30%, on down to a guaranteed max. Often, clients will share savings with us.

The estimators have contacts in most of the areas we disign and build, so they can talk to "local" people to help manage the estimating prices. The firm is over 30 years old, and this procedure has worked well for the firm.

-------------------------------------------
Charles Graham AIA
Architect
O'Neal, Inc.
Greenville SC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 09-03-2012 08:02
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hi Sean,
I guess I have been around long enough and designed and managed enough projects that I know what $XXX/sf means and what it is likely to include and to arrange my design and specifications to align with that.  Any architect who has similar experience will likely be able to do the same.  Also, I now package my bidding format to include multiple Owner Optional Upgrades (no more than 10) that are not part of the Base Bid, to guard what I know will be a smaller bid price without all the bells & whistles.  So: the contractor prices the Base Bid and the options separately and the options are like an ala carte menu from which the client can choose his dessert items.  It takes more work to package projects this way, but in my opinion, it is well worth it, and protects both the client from his own expensive wishes and the architect from accusations and helps insure at least a Base Bid project that works for everyone.

My point is that if we, as architects, are so bold and foolish enough to actually tell clients that their project will cost $YYY to build, we are setting ourselves up for real world problems and liability beyond E&O insurance.  Some insurers won't insure you if you do create cost estimates for clients.  Once again, clients will not accept responsibility for the goodies they want; it's just human nature.  Better to have the contractor weigh in and provide any estimates and let them enjoy all the responsibility this entails.  Architects design.  Builders build.  Or at least, that's the way it should be. 

Somewhere in the middle is the costing and if want to accept that role, we are accepting a huge amount of legal responsibility that we really are not equipped to handle.  I used to perform estimates, long ago, which is why I know what I am talking about.  Even for my large governmental clients.  I would carefully quiz various suppliers and subcontractors and general contractors to get what I thought were reliable numbers.  On one particular estimate, I had an extremely detailed estimate and I was very proud of the research I had done and knew that it was right.  Well, when the time came for real bids from contractors, sure enough, my total number was low and I had an angry and powerful client.  The culprit turned out to be large outdoor air-conditioning cooling towers.  The number given to me by the supplier was just dead wrong.  I had done my research, so I was not to blame, yet my estimate was too low and a large governmental agency was not pleased.  Very bad things could have happened.  I was blessed to get through that situation, but it could have easily turned out to be otherwise.

If any of you wish to put yourselves in this situation, go ahead and enjoy.  Personally, I rather be able to sleep at night and let the people who are providing the physical product provide the number to accomplish that. I do wish you well.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-31-2012 16:03
From: Sean Catherall
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Rand, how do you propose to design to a budget without going through the estimating process?

-------------------------------------------
Sean Catherall AIA
Integrated Property Services
Bluffdale UT
-------------------------------------------

Rand,

I am sorry if you may have misinterpreted the initial intent of TAP members announcements in this discussion thread. Brian and Kathleen (including myself), while associates, were passing information along to the membership as part of our communication and promotional roles in the TAP Advisory Group..

Brian posted an announcement for the September TAP webinar to get people interested in signing up and joining the conversation. Please take a moment to sign up and attend.

This webinar will include input from various industry professionals (including your peers, professional architects) who are already involved in providing such services to their clients. I believe that in many, if not all, of these cases, this is done under the IPD/Big BIM umbrella, where the architect is working very closely together with the project delivery team (including the general contractor) to add data, and thus value, to the building information model, as a means of tracking costs, not simply wildly guessing at the beginning and then waiting for the actual numbers at the end.

Kathleen's question, which was relayed from another member, was meant for the panelists of the webinar, to help spur a conversation regarding the topic. However, by posting it on the discussion forum, it was thought it would be a good topic for all those interested in attending the webinar to consider ahead of time and keep in mind during the presentations.

From my perspective, 5D works best in a IPD/Big BIM process where the WHOLE team is constantly sharing information, back and forth, throughout the entire process of design, procurement and construction, to keep the most accurate information and numbers in sync with everyone's expectations. 5D is ideally a function of an IPD, or "team" approach.

5D with the new BIM tools and the OLD design-bid-build process doesn't get you any further than the insanity everyone is used to up until now, so it really isn't valuable for us to talk about it. What is exciting and valuable is discussing how BIM processes, relationships, communications, and data are enhanced by new technologies to "change-the-game", if you will.

-------------------------------------------
Jeffrey W. Ouellette, Assoc. AIA
Architect Product Specialist
Nemetschek Vectorworks, Inc.
Austin TX

-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 08-30-2012 10:42
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: 5D BIM: Design Costs Analysis Webinar

Hello Kathleen, Brian and others,

Unless you yourselves are licensed, practicing architects, you will not fully understand the implications of representing cost estimating to a client.  Doing so places yourself squarely in their gunsights, when their budget goes over.  It is dangerous to offer a cost estimate.  Better to let those who build do that; they are the ones who have to sign their names to the agreement to build it for a certain amount.  Also, clients do not want to accept responsibility for what they want pushing costs over their limit and will question anything other than a contractor's bid that illustrates that.  So, better to let these touchy issues remain in the laps of the people who built it.  Not to mention the liability aspects of having your estimate proven inaccurate and having the client looking at you to fill in the missed item.  Toxic and unwise. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------