Technology in Architectural Practice

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Technology in Architectural Practice and Custom Residential Architects Network .
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The problem with this conversation is that most of it has missed my original point. What Greg is saying is entirely valid and, in my experience, entirely true. But its not really important whether my way, or Greg's way, or Gordon's way, or Eric Rawling's way, or any other particular way is best for an individual firm. The point is that there should be a conversation going on, because, while BIM is the right tool for some jobs, it is not the right tool for all jobs. 

I have re-read my original post, and I'm not sure how we ended up with so many people coaching me on the limits of 2D CAD in our modern world; we haven't designed a project solely in 2D for almost 15 years. I also received several thoughtful emails assuring me of greater profitability and a brighter future if I would leave 2D CAD behind and join the BIM world. All of this without knowing anything about our workflow or about the profitability of our various projects. But the fact is that the billing in my shop is heavily weighted toward the schematic and preliminary phases- its what we sell. Increases in efficiency during the CD and Admin phases do not automatically yield anywhere near the increase in profitability that a more accessible, more versatile modeler does, or even a better renderer. It also does not sell more jobs. I have never had anyone buy a project based on the ability of our software to estimate the water consumption, energy budget, etc. of a project. Our Clients want to know that WE have these issues in mind, and that we are designing responsibly, not that our software can do a kind of generalized analysis of a generic project. In the end, they want their design to be focused on their particular lives and on the particular things they like about the property that they have bought. They are not buying our services for our BIM software- they are buying our expertise in offering the right tool for their job. 

I spoke with the local Archicad rep yesterday at length, getting my ongoing education in BIM software evolution. (Archicad is the only product that we would actually buy, but that is another conversation). The rep raised the issue that no version of Archicad, including the current or next versions, could handle vertically angled walls. "No Frank Gehry," he said. Now, we understand that there are many good things about Archicad. But what he is saying is that any vertically angled wall has to be custom drafted and manually entered into the data base. It will not be tracked or updated by the software. It is not integrated into the model. Does this mean that we should not use vertically angled walls? Or does it mean that we should be having a conversation about which tools are right for what kinds of work? BIM would definitely hold a big place in that conversation. But so would non-BIM solid modelers that are comfortable with vertically angled walls, etc., and even Sketchup, along with all of the other excellent analytical, 2D and 3D tools that are out there.

I come back to my original point: the AIA should not be the software companies salesman. There are many ways to practice architecture in our technological world, and using BIM is just one of them. There is no service provided to us by the AIA when it is acting as if BIM were the only answer- no software is. So lets have a part of our conversation about how to produce high end, high quality details for highly individualized, custom projects, for individual Client's needs, PROFITABLY. After all, that is what our Clients are entitled to, and that is what we should be entitled to. Then maybe we'll get back to having something to offer our Clients that any contractor can't sell off the shelf.

Thanks again

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Raymond Strang AIA
Raymond Strang & Associates, AIA
Stevensville MD
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Raymond -- When you refer to "vertically angled walls" do you mean canted or slanted walls?  ArchiCAD has had this ability since Release 10, and can extrude any shaped wall along a path for that matter.  And a lot of "Gehry stuff" can be modeled using the Shell tool.  Also, no employee of Graphisoft nor it's affiliated resellers, consultants, etc. may speak of their knowledge of "next versions."  I'm afraid this guy's doing you and GS a disservice.

Not to take away from your point, but I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions.

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Laura Yanoviak AIA
Y's BIM Consulting, LLC
Denver CO
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From Ray Strang's post:

"The rep raised the issue that no version of Archicad, including the current or next versions, could handle vertically angled walls. "No Frank Gehry," he said. Now, we understand that there are many good things about Archicad. But what he is saying is that any vertically angled wall has to be custom drafted and manually entered into the data base."
 
Try doing wall reveals that slope with Revit.  It can be done, but not easily.

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Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
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Ken,

Perhaps things have changed since you last lookeded @ Revit. Here's an example of reveals created in Revit in a few minutes. These are done using Parts.


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Dennis McNeal AIA
Autodesk, Inc.
Manchester NH
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Original Message:
Sent: 03-12-2012 11:55
From: Ken Brogno
Subject: Downside, cont.

From Ray Strang's post:

"The rep raised the issue that no version of Archicad, including the current or next versions, could handle vertically angled walls. "No Frank Gehry," he said. Now, we understand that there are many good things about Archicad. But what he is saying is that any vertically angled wall has to be custom drafted and manually entered into the data base."
 
Try doing wall reveals that slope with Revit.  It can be done, but not easily.

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Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
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Dennis,

Perhaps it is easier than I know.  However, I was referring to wall reveals that slope on a wall regardless of whether the wall itself is sloped.  Imagine a diagonal wall reveal on a wall that is plumb.  In other words, take the squares that you have created and turn them into trapezoids.  Let's also assume that the wall is essentially homogenous, i.e. a sheetrock and wood stud wall.  In other words, not a curtain wall - just a wall type.  Maybe easier with Revit 2012 and parts, but I couldn't figure out an easy way with 2011 or previous versions.  Very common construction though.

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Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
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Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2012 08:08
From: Dennis McNeal
Subject: Downside, cont.


Ken,

Perhaps things have changed since you last lookeded @ Revit. Here's an example of reveals created in Revit in a few minutes. These are done using Parts.


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Dennis McNeal AIA
Autodesk, Inc.
Manchester NH
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Hi Ken,
 
You are correct about the behavior in 2011, as Revit Parts and Assemblies were introduced in 2012 & further improved in the soon to be released 2013. You can make parts and/or assemblies from walls & then divide them by sketching or using grids (column, reference or level). You can specify the (reveal) gap & even a profile for the gap. Here are some examples I made this year while testing the feature improvements.

 

Cheers,
Dennis
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Dennis McNeal AIA
Autodesk, Inc.
Manchester NH
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Original Message:
Sent: 03-14-2012 02:31
From: Ken Brogno
Subject: Downside, cont.

Dennis,

Perhaps it is easier than I know.  However, I was referring to wall reveals that slope on a wall regardless of whether the wall itself is sloped.  Imagine a diagonal wall reveal on a wall that is plumb.  In other words, take the squares that you have created and turn them into trapezoids.  Let's also assume that the wall is essentially homogenous, i.e. a sheetrock and wood stud wall.  In other words, not a curtain wall - just a wall type.  Maybe easier with Revit 2012 and parts, but I couldn't figure out an easy way with 2011 or previous versions.  Very common construction though.

-------------------------------------------
Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2012 08:08
From: Dennis McNeal
Subject: Downside, cont.


Ken,

Perhaps things have changed since you last lookeded @ Revit. Here's an example of reveals created in Revit in a few minutes. These are done using Parts.


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Dennis McNeal AIA
Autodesk, Inc.
Manchester NH
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Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
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From Jonathan Holley's post:

"It is such a common construction that the omission of such tools borders on the sadistic..."

Dennis,

You do understand our frustrations don't you?  Five+ iterations of Revit in Autodesk's hands and it is only now that features as we have described are being implemented?  There is a vast disconnect between Autodesk developers and us end users.  After all, it took a program like Sketch Up to force Autodesk to develop conceptual massing. 

This is not meant as an attack.  It is meant as a suggestion if Autodesk even considers the architectural community worthy in comparison to its other markets.  From all my past experiences, I am not sure that it does.  



Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2012 07:58
From: Dennis McNeal
Subject: Downside, cont.

Hi Ken,
 
You are correct about the behavior in 2011, as Revit Parts and Assemblies were introduced in 2012 & further improved in the soon to be released 2013. You can make parts and/or assemblies from walls & then divide them by sketching or using grids (column, reference or level). You can specify the (reveal) gap & even a profile for the gap. Here are some examples I made this year while testing the feature improvements.

 

Cheers,
Dennis
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Dennis McNeal AIA
Autodesk, Inc.
Manchester NH
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-14-2012 02:31
From: Ken Brogno
Subject: Downside, cont.

Dennis,

Perhaps it is easier than I know.  However, I was referring to wall reveals that slope on a wall regardless of whether the wall itself is sloped.  Imagine a diagonal wall reveal on a wall that is plumb.  In other words, take the squares that you have created and turn them into trapezoids.  Let's also assume that the wall is essentially homogenous, i.e. a sheetrock and wood stud wall.  In other words, not a curtain wall - just a wall type.  Maybe easier with Revit 2012 and parts, but I couldn't figure out an easy way with 2011 or previous versions.  Very common construction though.

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Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
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In the picture shown, I have created sloped reveals in Autodesk Architecture 2007. Not only are they reveals, but in plan view they are the shape of Gothic arches.

Is this the sloped wall that the orignal poster said could not be done?

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Charles Graham AIA
Architect
O'Neal, Inc.
Greenville SC
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Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2012 07:58
From: Dennis McNeal
Subject: Downside, cont.

Hi Ken,
 
You are correct about the behavior in 2011, as Revit Parts and Assemblies were introduced in 2012 & further improved in the soon to be released 2013. You can make parts and/or assemblies from walls & then divide them by sketching or using grids (column, reference or level). You can specify the (reveal) gap & even a profile for the gap. Here are some examples I made this year while testing the feature improvements.

 

Cheers,
Dennis
-------------------------------------------
Dennis McNeal AIA
Autodesk, Inc.
Manchester NH
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-14-2012 02:31
From: Ken Brogno
Subject: Downside, cont.

Dennis,

Perhaps it is easier than I know.  However, I was referring to wall reveals that slope on a wall regardless of whether the wall itself is sloped.  Imagine a diagonal wall reveal on a wall that is plumb.  In other words, take the squares that you have created and turn them into trapezoids.  Let's also assume that the wall is essentially homogenous, i.e. a sheetrock and wood stud wall.  In other words, not a curtain wall - just a wall type.  Maybe easier with Revit 2012 and parts, but I couldn't figure out an easy way with 2011 or previous versions.  Very common construction though.

-------------------------------------------
Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
-------------------------------------------

Dennis:

That's a nice example of the new parts feature, but I have to ask: how did you create the slanted wall?

I *hope* I'm missing a new feature in Revit 2012, but my understanding is that there are still only two ways to model a slanted wall in Revit: 1) "hard modeling" it as in in-place family or 2) creating an in-place mass or mass family and creating a "wall by face" based the mass.

While a savvy Revit user can use either of these methods to create a workable model, both of have *serious* disadvantages and are inelegant solutions. 

"Hard modeling" is easy and makes sense if you're tricking out a piece of casework like a reception desk where every section will be custom, but what if you're designing a student union that has to slanted, curved "feature" walls of similar construction (but different slants and plans) sprinkled throughout the building? If you decided to change the construction and you've hard-modeled it, you're forced to adjust each wall. A significant time expenditure for a very small change.

What we hoi polloi are clamoring for is the ability to *easily* slant regular-old wall types, without losing any of the great features for wall manipulation that are built into Revit (attaching to roofs, editing profile). You can create a mass and a wall based on a face, yes, but in practice it's a pain to manipulate once you've generated it... 

I'm currently working on a small 12,000 SF project where I'm the only modeler; I know the model inside and out, and I still find it cumbersome and counterintuitive to manipulate the slanted walls. If I realize I need to elongate a classroom by two feet I have to: 1) turn on "mass" workset, 2) select mass, 3) enter the in-place family editor for the "master" wall, 4) manipulate the underlying geometry, 5) close family editor, 6) update wall to the new face. I don't think I'm alone when I say that the intuitive steps should be: 1) click on wall end, 2) drag wall to end desired location. Anything additional steps introduce needless complexity. 

It is very frustrating to see a company that creates such great products ignore the development of tools to easily tilt and manipulate walls. It is such a common construction that the omission of such tools borders on the sadistic...
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Jonathan Holley AIA
Architect
Gould Evans Associates, LLC
Lawrence KS
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-14-2012 02:31
From: Ken Brogno
Subject: Downside, cont.

Dennis,

Perhaps it is easier than I know.  However, I was referring to wall reveals that slope on a wall regardless of whether the wall itself is sloped.  Imagine a diagonal wall reveal on a wall that is plumb.  In other words, take the squares that you have created and turn them into trapezoids.  Let's also assume that the wall is essentially homogenous, i.e. a sheetrock and wood stud wall.  In other words, not a curtain wall - just a wall type.  Maybe easier with Revit 2012 and parts, but I couldn't figure out an easy way with 2011 or previous versions.  Very common construction though.

-------------------------------------------
Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-13-2012 08:08
From: Dennis McNeal
Subject: Downside, cont.


Ken,

Perhaps things have changed since you last lookeded @ Revit. Here's an example of reveals created in Revit in a few minutes. These are done using Parts.


-------------------------------------------
Dennis McNeal AIA
Autodesk, Inc.
Manchester NH
-------------------------------------------

Hi Jonathan,

The tilted wall was done using the Wall by Face tool. I agree with you and your assessment of this approach has limitations. I hope this can be improved in the future.

Thanks,
Dennis

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Dennis McNeal AIA
Autodesk, Inc.
Manchester NH
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-15-2012 11:06
From: Jonathan Holley
Subject: Downside, cont.

Dennis:

That's a nice example of the new parts feature, but I have to ask: how did you create the slanted wall?

I *hope* I'm missing a new feature in Revit 2012, but my understanding is that there are still only two ways to model a slanted wall in Revit: 1) "hard modeling" it as in in-place family or 2) creating an in-place mass or mass family and creating a "wall by face" based the mass.

While a savvy Revit user can use either of these methods to create a workable model, both of have *serious* disadvantages and are inelegant solutions. 

"Hard modeling" is easy and makes sense if you're tricking out a piece of casework like a reception desk where every section will be custom, but what if you're designing a student union that has to slanted, curved "feature" walls of similar construction (but different slants and plans) sprinkled throughout the building? If you decided to change the construction and you've hard-modeled it, you're forced to adjust each wall. A significant time expenditure for a very small change.

What we hoi polloi are clamoring for is the ability to *easily* slant regular-old wall types, without losing any of the great features for wall manipulation that are built into Revit (attaching to roofs, editing profile). You can create a mass and a wall based on a face, yes, but in practice it's a pain to manipulate once you've generated it... 

I'm currently working on a small 12,000 SF project where I'm the only modeler; I know the model inside and out, and I still find it cumbersome and counterintuitive to manipulate the slanted walls. If I realize I need to elongate a classroom by two feet I have to: 1) turn on "mass" workset, 2) select mass, 3) enter the in-place family editor for the "master" wall, 4) manipulate the underlying geometry, 5) close family editor, 6) update wall to the new face. I don't think I'm alone when I say that the intuitive steps should be: 1) click on wall end, 2) drag wall to end desired location. Anything additional steps introduce needless complexity. 

It is very frustrating to see a company that creates such great products ignore the development of tools to easily tilt and manipulate walls. It is such a common construction that the omission of such tools borders on the sadistic...
-------------------------------------------
Jonathan Holley AIA
Architect
Gould Evans Associates, LLC
Lawrence KS
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-14-2012 02:31
From: Ken Brogno
Subject: Downside, cont.

Dennis,

Perhaps it is easier than I know.  However, I was referring to wall reveals that slope on a wall regardless of whether the wall itself is sloped.  Imagine a diagonal wall reveal on a wall that is plumb.  In other words, take the squares that you have created and turn them into trapezoids.  Let's also assume that the wall is essentially homogenous, i.e. a sheetrock and wood stud wall.  In other words, not a curtain wall - just a wall type.  Maybe easier with Revit 2012 and parts, but I couldn't figure out an easy way with 2011 or previous versions.  Very common construction though.

-------------------------------------------
Ken Brogno AIA
Architect AIA LEED AP
San Francisco CA
-------------------------------------------

Thanks for the recap Raymond. I was thinking the same thing. ------------------------------------------- Ricardo Ramos Assoc. AIA, LEED® AP, CSI Alpha Analysis, Inc. Arcadia CA -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-09-2012 07:22 From: Raymond Strang Subject: Downside, cont. This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Technology in Architectural Practice and Custom Residential Architects Network . ------------------------------------------- The problem with this conversation is that most of it has missed my original point. What Greg is saying is entirely valid and, in my experience, entirely true. But its not really important whether my way, or Greg's way, or Gordon's way, or Eric Rawling's way, or any other particular way is best for an individual firm. The point is that there should be a conversation going on, because, while BIM is the right tool for some jobs, it is not the right tool for all jobs. I have re-read my original post, and I'm not sure how we ended up with so many people coaching me on the limits of 2D CAD in our modern world; we haven't designed a project solely in 2D for almost 15 years. I also received several thoughtful emails assuring me of greater profitability and a brighter future if I would leave 2D CAD behind and join the BIM world. All of this without knowing anything about our workflow or about the profitability of our various projects. But the fact is that the billing in my shop is heavily weighted toward the schematic and preliminary phases- its what we sell. Increases in efficiency during the CD and Admin phases do not automatically yield anywhere near the increase in profitability that a more accessible, more versatile modeler does, or even a better renderer. It also does not sell more jobs. I have never had anyone buy a project based on the ability of our software to estimate the water consumption, energy budget, etc. of a project. Our Clients want to know that WE have these issues in mind, and that we are designing responsibly, not that our software can do a kind of generalized analysis of a generic project. In the end, they want their design to be focused on their particular lives and on the particular things they like about the property that they have bought. They are not buying our services for our BIM software- they are buying our expertise in offering the right tool for their job. I spoke with the local Archicad rep yesterday at length, getting my ongoing education in BIM software evolution. (Archicad is the only product that we would actually buy, but that is another conversation). The rep raised the issue that no version of Archicad, including the current or next versions, could handle vertically angled walls. "No Frank Gehry," he said. Now, we understand that there are many good things about Archicad. But what he is saying is that any vertically angled wall has to be custom drafted and manually entered into the data base. It will not be tracked or updated by the software. It is not integrated into the model. Does this mean that we should not use vertically angled walls? Or does it mean that we should be having a conversation about which tools are right for what kinds of work? BIM would definitely hold a big place in that conversation. But so would non-BIM solid modelers that are comfortable with vertically angled walls, etc., and even Sketchup, along with all of the other excellent analytical, 2D and 3D tools that are out there. I come back to my original point: the AIA should not be the software companies salesman. There are many ways to practice architecture in our technological world, and using BIM is just one of them. There is no service provided to us by the AIA when it is acting as if BIM were the only answer- no software is. So lets have a part of our conversation about how to produce high end, high quality details for highly individualized, custom projects, for individual Client's needs, PROFITABLY. After all, that is what our Clients are entitled to, and that is what we should be entitled to. Then maybe we'll get back to having something to offer our Clients that any contractor can't sell off the shelf. Thanks again ------------------------------------------- Raymond Strang AIA Raymond Strang & Associates, AIA Stevensville MD -------------------------------------------