Technology in Architectural Practice

I've seen the AutoDesk comparison tables, but not yet heard from any actual users of Revit LT versus full Revit Architecture or AutoDesk Building Design Suite (which includes Revit all-in-one Architecture-Structure and MEP).

I understand that certain things are not included in Revit LT and that AutoDesk has "crippled" the LT version by not included in-software rendering or the ability to create certain in-place features and that you are not supposed to be able to create roof trusses in the LT version.  Also you can't create stairs by the Sketch Mode.

The question is: have any Architect out there used Revit LT and also used full Revit?  If so, what are your experiences?  Do you believe that paying another $5K or so is worth it to go with the Bldg Des Suite?  Or is Revit LT just fine alone?  Or how about Revit Architecture?  Is that adequate and the Bldg Des Suite overkill?  Will we, as Architects ever use all the programs in the entire Suite?  It is too much software to learn?  Or does it all come with time and prove useful? 


-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------

Hello:

Each of the limitation that you mentioned for LT are correct. Rendering is in the Cloud only. Stairs can only use the new component based stairs and not the sketch-based ones. There are certain in-place features not there as well and it is only architectural and not multi-discipline. 

however, the most important limitation is that Revit LT does not have work sharing. So if you intend to use it in a multi-person firm, it would prove very difficult. For a single person firm, or small firm doing projects with only one person on the team, it should work just fine. 

As for the full suite vs. individual products, there is a LOT of software there. So learning curve is certainly steep. I think if even two products are useful for you like say Revit and AutoCAD, that it ends up being cheaper than individually and you can consider the rest "bonus". 

Hope that helps. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

Consider this a "bump" or a "second that motion" post since I, too, am interested in these questions.  I understand that Revit LT is a "one man show" and that you cannot divvy up the model into workgroups.  I also under stand that you can "render in the cloud" if you maintain a subscription with LT.  I am curious if that's true and how well that works.

When a BIM is mandated by an owner like the GSA what qualifies?  For instance, do they expect there to be a complete civil package in the BIM?  Sitework is a glaring weakness of Revit and many firms, I understand, pull the site totally out of the BIM.  Is MEP mandated to be "in the BIM"?  Could that be a negative with LT, since it is not able to be part of a complete BIM package?  If not now, what about the future?

-------------------------------------------
Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
President
Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
Little Rock AR
-------------------------------------------

If you really needed to work in a team with LT, it could be done using linking, it just wouldn't be all that efficient. It might work OK if you carefully divided up the files, but could be problematic as well, so yes LT is best for small and single person shops. 

As for BIM mandates, the Revit LT file format is the same as full Revit. So if you send a model to a Revit user, they can open it just fine. 

There is no Revit Civil. Either full or LT. So all Civil work in a BIM project has to be done outside of Revit. It can be AutoCAD, or Civil 3D typically. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2013 15:02
From: Darrel Odom
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit

Consider this a "bump" or a "second that motion" post since I, too, am interested in these questions.  I understand that Revit LT is a "one man show" and that you cannot divvy up the model into workgroups.  I also under stand that you can "render in the cloud" if you maintain a subscription with LT.  I am curious if that's true and how well that works.

When a BIM is mandated by an owner like the GSA what qualifies?  For instance, do they expect there to be a complete civil package in the BIM?  Sitework is a glaring weakness of Revit and many firms, I understand, pull the site totally out of the BIM.  Is MEP mandated to be "in the BIM"?  Could that be a negative with LT, since it is not able to be part of a complete BIM package?  If not now, what about the future?

-------------------------------------------
Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
President
Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
Little Rock AR
-------------------------------------------

It is my understanding that RLT does not allow the use of add-on's, which, for me, is a deal-killer. I've used Revit now for about 6 years and find that a great many of the add-on's can be tremendous timesavers. ------------------------------------------- Mike Leinback AIA Senior Associate Randall Scott Architects, Inc. Dallas TX -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-05-2013 15:02 From: Darrel Odom Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit Consider this a "bump" or a "second that motion" post since I, too, am interested in these questions. I understand that Revit LT is a "one man show" and that you cannot divvy up the model into workgroups. I also under stand that you can "render in the cloud" if you maintain a subscription with LT. I am curious if that's true and how well that works. When a BIM is mandated by an owner like the GSA what qualifies? For instance, do they expect there to be a complete civil package in the BIM? Sitework is a glaring weakness of Revit and many firms, I understand, pull the site totally out of the BIM. Is MEP mandated to be "in the BIM"? Could that be a negative with LT, since it is not able to be part of a complete BIM package? If not now, what about the future? ------------------------------------------- Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP President Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc. Little Rock AR -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 03-03-2013 13:37 From: Rand Soellner Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit I've seen the AutoDesk comparison tables, but not yet heard from any actual users of Revit LT versus full Revit Architecture or AutoDesk Building Design Suite (which includes Revit all-in-one Architecture-Structure and MEP). I understand that certain things are not included in Revit LT and that AutoDesk has "crippled" the LT version by not included in-software rendering or the ability to create certain in-place features and that you are not supposed to be able to create roof trusses in the LT version. Also you can't create stairs by the Sketch Mode. The question is: have any Architect out there used Revit LT and also used full Revit? If so, what are your experiences? Do you believe that paying another $5K or so is worth it to go with the Bldg Des Suite? Or is Revit LT just fine alone? Or how about Revit Architecture? Is that adequate and the Bldg Des Suite overkill? Will we, as Architects ever use all the programs in the entire Suite? It is too much software to learn? Or does it all come with time and prove useful? ------------------------------------------- Rand Soellner AIA Architect/Owner/Principal Home Architects Cashiers NC -------------------------------------------

Excellent point. There are many good add-ins out there for sure. And LT does not support them. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

Through our friend, Paul Aubin, 

I have just discovered a MAJOR drawback with using Revit LT, at least for my purposes:
According to Paul, Revit LT does NOT allow you to do any kind of animations, whatsoever, even in the Cloud on a subscription. 
Animation = walkthroughs and flyarounds.  The coolest graphics an Architect could hope to obtain from their hard work in creating a 3D model.  And with LT: No way.

Also, Paul doesn't believe that you can insert a real photo behind your 3D model on Revit LT, even using AutoDesk's Cloud computing.  That means you will need a PhotoShop guru in your office (unless you are clever enough to know how) to try to accomplish after the fact.  With the full version of Revit, you can do this in a few seconds: it is a menu choice; no sweat.

(The following comments are my own and have nothing to do with Mr. Aubin, so AutoDesk, do not blame Mr. Aubin for my comments).

So: AutoDesk has successfully crippled Revit LT, at least in my opinion, for what I wanted to use it for.  Doggone it.

I noticed that one of us Architects appears to work for AutoDesk.  Here's a comment or two that the rest of us not working for AutoDesk would appreciate you passing along to your board:

Architects still find themselves in a Depression.
Definition of Recession: when your neighbor loses his job.
Definition of Depression: when you lose your job.

In other words, the big purple elephant sitting in the corner over there is the fact that Architects are having a very difficult time barely surviving these days.  We don't have a lot of spare cash to use on software & hardware upgrades, particularly when our clients don't care and in fact want us to design projects for them for less money, not more.

Do we all want to improve our practices and learn 3D/BIM?  Sure.  Any conscientious practitioner would.  Even if it means that we will have to spend untold thousands of person-hours learning a very complicated new way of designing buildings for which no one is going to pay us to learn.

However, when you create products that seduce us with all the bells & whistles that we love and want, then tease us with a crippled version that pulls out the goodies and doesn't allow for more than a pittance of that investment to be used to trade up to the full version, it hurts AutoDesk and Architects.  How?  Because many Architects, concerned about keeping their homes, cars and buying food for their families will come to the same conclusion and do nothing.  For years.  Let's see: full Revit with all the cool stuff or buy groceries?  Hmmm.

AutoDesk should, in my opinion, GIVE full Revit to any Architect that wants it, along with all the free videos and training they need to ramp up.  Then charge for upgrades, like your subscription fee, per year, every year.  That will give you a near 100% A/E market absorption rate for the long term and isn't that what you really want?

What I am reacting to is your present policy of not allowing more than $200 to $300 worth of value for Revit LT when we want to trade up to the full version of Revit.  That seems unfair.  You are making it harder for Architects to get into your boat.  If you would allow Architects at least, say 90% of their investment in Revit LT to be applied to their upgrade to say the AutoDesk Building Design Suite Premium, at least we wouldn't feel abused and allow us to know that our very hard-earned dollars haven't been wasted.

But: thank you for buying the Revit company about a decade ago and for continuing to improve the software.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-06-2013 18:00
From: J. Michael Leinback
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit


It is my understanding that RLT does not allow the use of add-on's, which, for me, is a deal-killer. I've used Revit now for about 6 years and find that a great many of the add-on's can be tremendous timesavers.
-------------------------------------------
Mike Leinback AIA
Senior Associate
Randall Scott Architects, Inc.
Dallas TX

-------------------------------------------

I feel like Gilda Radner on the old Saturday Night Live show, when she delivered a rant on the news, then, being told that she was misinformed quietly said: "Never mind..."

here is a fact sheet from AutoDesk on the features of Revit LT:



As you can see, it certainly looks like Revit LT does appear to have the animation tool.  I owe AutoDesk an apology for this: "Sorry, AutoDesk."  However, I would still ask AutoDesk to allow a greater trade-in value to moving from Revit LT up to Revit Architecture or AutoDesk Building Design Suite.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-07-2013 10:01
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit


Through our friend, Paul Aubin, 

I have just discovered a MAJOR drawback with using Revit LT, at least for my purposes:
According to Paul, Revit LT does NOT allow you to do any kind of animations, whatsoever, even in the Cloud on a subscription. 
Animation = walkthroughs and flyarounds.  The coolest graphics an Architect could hope to obtain from their hard work in creating a 3D model.  And with LT: No way.

Also, Paul doesn't believe that you can insert a real photo behind your 3D model on Revit LT, even using AutoDesk's Cloud computing.  That means you will need a PhotoShop guru in your office (unless you are clever enough to know how) to try to accomplish after the fact.  With the full version of Revit, you can do this in a few seconds: it is a menu choice; no sweat.

(The following comments are my own and have nothing to do with Mr. Aubin, so AutoDesk, do not blame Mr. Aubin for my comments).

So: AutoDesk has successfully crippled Revit LT, at least in my opinion, for what I wanted to use it for.  Doggone it.

I noticed that one of us Architects appears to work for AutoDesk.  Here's a comment or two that the rest of us not working for AutoDesk would appreciate you passing along to your board:

Architects still find themselves in a Depression.
Definition of Recession: when your neighbor loses his job.
Definition of Depression: when you lose your job.

In other words, the big purple elephant sitting in the corner over there is the fact that Architects are having a very difficult time barely surviving these days.  We don't have a lot of spare cash to use on software & hardware upgrades, particularly when our clients don't care and in fact want us to design projects for them for less money, not more.

Do we all want to improve our practices and learn 3D/BIM?  Sure.  Any conscientious practitioner would.  Even if it means that we will have to spend untold thousands of person-hours learning a very complicated new way of designing buildings for which no one is going to pay us to learn.

However, when you create products that seduce us with all the bells & whistles that we love and want, then tease us with a crippled version that pulls out the goodies and doesn't allow for more than a pittance of that investment to be used to trade up to the full version, it hurts AutoDesk and Architects.  How?  Because many Architects, concerned about keeping their homes, cars and buying food for their families will come to the same conclusion and do nothing.  For years.  Let's see: full Revit with all the cool stuff or buy groceries?  Hmmm.

AutoDesk should, in my opinion, GIVE full Revit to any Architect that wants it, along with all the free videos and training they need to ramp up.  Then charge for upgrades, like your subscription fee, per year, every year.  That will give you a near 100% A/E market absorption rate for the long term and isn't that what you really want?

What I am reacting to is your present policy of not allowing more than $200 to $300 worth of value for Revit LT when we want to trade up to the full version of Revit.  That seems unfair.  You are making it harder for Architects to get into your boat.  If you would allow Architects at least, say 90% of their investment in Revit LT to be applied to their upgrade to say the AutoDesk Building Design Suite Premium, at least we wouldn't feel abused and allow us to know that our very hard-earned dollars haven't been wasted.

But: thank you for buying the Revit company about a decade ago and for continuing to improve the software.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-06-2013 18:00
From: J. Michael Leinback
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit


It is my understanding that RLT does not allow the use of add-on's, which, for me, is a deal-killer. I've used Revit now for about 6 years and find that a great many of the add-on's can be tremendous timesavers.
-------------------------------------------
Mike Leinback AIA
Senior Associate
Randall Scott Architects, Inc.
Dallas TX

-------------------------------------------

I actually did take the leap and purchase the Revit LT 2013 Suite. The Suite includes a copy of AutoCAD LT 2013. Autodesk was offering a rebate and coupon which combined saved me over $400.

Before that, I was using Revit Architecture 2010. As a single person office, the loss of the worksharing component is not a problem for me. I haven't tried any of the rendering, it's not something I have much call for in my practice. The one thing that I sort of miss is the in place custom family creation. Instead I have to create a new family file and load it into model. Extra steps that were not really necessary before. I am still trying to figure out the material library system which is much different from 2010.

Another thing I have noticed is file conversion from older version. First, it will not import any Revit family which has been created with version 2008 or earlier. Also, some models seem to take a very long time to convert, even with the 64bit version installed.

-------------------------------------------
John Benware AIA
Architect
JFBjr Architect, P.C.
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

As you indicated, you can always build custom components in the Family Editor. Actually, even in full Revit, we try to discourage the widespread use of in-place Families. They have their use, but if "over done" it can cause real problems. So in a way, LT forces the issue by not allowing it... :-)

Cloud rendering is quite good. What's nice is that it processes in the cloud while you keep working, so you don't tie up your machine. Nice. 

As for upgrading old files, I am not sure about the limitation you mentioned. But could you first open the files in the copy of 2010 that you have and then open them in LT? I know it takes more time, but it might do the trick. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2013 17:23
From: John Benware
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit

I actually did take the leap and purchase the Revit LT 2013 Suite. The Suite includes a copy of AutoCAD LT 2013. Autodesk was offering a rebate and coupon which combined saved me over $400.

Before that, I was using Revit Architecture 2010. As a single person office, the loss of the worksharing component is not a problem for me. I haven't tried any of the rendering, it's not something I have much call for in my practice. The one thing that I sort of miss is the in place custom family creation. Instead I have to create a new family file and load it into model. Extra steps that were not really necessary before. I am still trying to figure out the material library system which is much different from 2010.

Another thing I have noticed is file conversion from older version. First, it will not import any Revit family which has been created with version 2008 or earlier. Also, some models seem to take a very long time to convert, even with the 64bit version installed.

-------------------------------------------
John Benware AIA
Architect
JFBjr Architect, P.C.
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

For anyone that does not know this: Paul Aubin is one of the Jedi Guru Masters of Revit in the world today.  He is being most gracious in responding to us Architects here in this forum.  THANK YOU, Paul. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2013 18:40
From: Paul Aubin
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit

As you indicated, you can always build custom components in the Family Editor. Actually, even in full Revit, we try to discourage the widespread use of in-place Families. They have their use, but if "over done" it can cause real problems. So in a way, LT forces the issue by not allowing it... :-)

Cloud rendering is quite good. What's nice is that it processes in the cloud while you keep working, so you don't tie up your machine. Nice. 

As for upgrading old files, I am not sure about the limitation you mentioned. But could you first open the files in the copy of 2010 that you have and then open them in LT? I know it takes more time, but it might do the trick. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

I wanted to mention that Paul Aubin's tutorial videos are here:
www.lynda.com/paulaubin and anyone considering learning Revit may appreciate having access to that resource.  I imagine that thousands of Architects are going through this analysis right now: to spend $5775 for Revit Architecture, or $6800+/- for AutoDesk Building Design Suite, or $1,111 for the Revit LT Suite (which includes AutoCad 2013 LT) on Amazon right now, which seems like a great bargain, which includes a one-year subscription, which is supposed to mean that you receive new updates, which I would interpret the upcoming Revit 2014 release as being (but in its LT form).

Any other Architect's comments about using Revit LT versus full Revit would be appreciate here.  Please comment.  We all would like to learn from your experiences.  Thank you.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2013 22:14
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit

For anyone that does not know this: Paul Aubin is one of the Jedi Guru Masters of Revit in the world today.  He is being most gracious in responding to us Architects here in this forum.  THANK YOU, Paul. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2013 18:40
From: Paul Aubin
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit

As you indicated, you can always build custom components in the Family Editor. Actually, even in full Revit, we try to discourage the widespread use of in-place Families. They have their use, but if "over done" it can cause real problems. So in a way, LT forces the issue by not allowing it... :-)

Cloud rendering is quite good. What's nice is that it processes in the cloud while you keep working, so you don't tie up your machine. Nice. 

As for upgrading old files, I am not sure about the limitation you mentioned. But could you first open the files in the copy of 2010 that you have and then open them in LT? I know it takes more time, but it might do the trick. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but Revit LT does not allow for install of third party add-ins.  I only mention this because I know my own firm uses numerous add-ins to help us work more efficiently.  As a programmer of Revit add-ins myself, I am a bit frustrated by this move by Autodesk but I guess it is similar to not allowing AutoLISP or Macros usage in AutoCAD LT.

-------------------------------------------
Nicholas Kovach AIA
WRA Architects, Inc.
Richardson TX
-------------------------------------------

No Thanks necessary. It is my pleasure. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

It's probably worth mentioning that rendering in the cloud is faster than rendering locally - a lot faster! The processing speed of cloud computing really shines here. This is a bonus on top of the point Paul makes about being able to continue working after sending the rendering.

-------------------------------------------
Dennis McNeal AIA
Autodesk, Inc.
Manchester NH
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-05-2013 18:40
From: Paul Aubin
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit

As you indicated, you can always build custom components in the Family Editor. Actually, even in full Revit, we try to discourage the widespread use of in-place Families. They have their use, but if "over done" it can cause real problems. So in a way, LT forces the issue by not allowing it... :-)

Cloud rendering is quite good. What's nice is that it processes in the cloud while you keep working, so you don't tie up your machine. Nice. 

As for upgrading old files, I am not sure about the limitation you mentioned. But could you first open the files in the copy of 2010 that you have and then open them in LT? I know it takes more time, but it might do the trick. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

Hey Dennis:

Another excellent point.

Nice to hear from you. Hope all is well. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

This thread, which I started, is supposed to be about Revit LT versus full Revit.
However, some folks have thought to also discuss ArchiCad and extol its virtues.  I guess everyone has their own favorites.  I did want to add some facts: ArchiCad does have a discounted version, called Star(t).  It is very hard to find a price for this online (which tells you something about how tightly such information is held among their dealers), but it appears to be somewhere around $1,900 +/-.  The logical comparison for this would not be full Revit, but rather, Revit LT.  I just bought the Revit LT 2013 Suite, which includes not only Revit LT, but AutoCad 2013 LT and a 1 year subscription, which means that when version 2014 comes out, I get that for no additional cost.  Oh yeah: the cost: $1,111 on Amazon.  Incredible deal.  Full Revit Architecture can be had for around $5400+/- and the AutoDesk Building Design Suite for around $6,100 if you know where to look.  However, the point about Revit LT is this: AutoDesk's philosophy with all of their LT (light) softwares is to provide about 80% of the functionality for about 20% of the price.  Revit LT is no exception to this.  In other words, ArchiCad Start is really about twice as much as Revit LT (which I have seen by itself for right around $1k). 

Here's the more important aspect: do you remember Beta videotapes?  VHS won.  Same thing with AutoDesk software.  Do you really want to end up with the Beta version of 3D/BIM?  I tried ArchiCad.  Didn't like it.  Wasn't intuitive to someone who has been using AutoCad for 20+ years.  Nothing is similar.  Revit, on the other hand, is made by the same people that make AutoCad.  The interface, while different, because it is 3D, is still closer, on some procedures than an Apple product (yeah, I know, it works on PCs these days, too). 

I'm not sure, but I don't think you get 3D animation walk-throughs with ArchiCad Start.  You DO with Revit LT.  Also, AutoDesk will render still images for you in the cloud, if you have their subscription, which means: your computer can continue to be used to design and do other work, while AutoDesk crunches your images for you.  Contrary to popular opinion, the AutoDesk subscription is optional.  I verified this both while talking directly to an AutoDesk rep and to an AutoDesk reseller.  It does, however, make pretty good sense.  For instance, the subscription on Revit LT is around $225/year.  If you have the full version, or the Bldg Des Suite, of course it will be more. 

Also, some unexpected things can happen with ArchiCad files.  When I downloaded it, about 18 months ago, to try its latest version, it hijacked all of my video files.  Anything with an ".MOD" suffix, it reoriented to become an ArchiCad file.  What a mess.  And quite frankly, not much that I read online or tried to learn from the online tutorials for ArchiCad made much sense to me, in terms of "what buttons do I push?"  I did try to go through their tutorials, when I downloaded the trial software and it just had no relevance for me: working with "slabs" (instead of Revit: which works with actual construction systems and allows you modify those systems layer, by layer).  Also, the GraphiSoft reseller admitted that ArchiCad Start wasn't very good with complex walls and in fact, may not work at all in that regard.  Revit is: Revit LT can handle just about any kind of wall.  I'm sure full ArchiCad can also, but it seems that their "light" version doesn't seem to be as robust as Revit LT.  Do what you will and I'm sure that old-time dyed in the wool Apple people who have been using ArchiCad for years may find it useful; but I'd rather use what the rest of the world has determined to be the universal 3D/BIM program for the AEC community.  And: I actually understand most of it... at least, so far.  It seems logical.  Like any 3D/BIM software, this is something new to how Architects are used to drawing, so there will be cuss words with anything like this, with ArchiCad as well, I am sure.  Which is why you can contact AutoDesk for support.  I continue to receive knowledgeable solutions from AutoDesk staff on their forums, even though I have just now purchased the software.  They are forthcoming with useful answers.  I participated in Project Spark last summer (which has become Revit LT). 

One final word about Graphisoft: I bought and actually owned Archicad and a Mac around 1989.  After getting frustrated with it during the next year, I finally dumped it as a tax writeoff.  What a waste.  Thinking that Graphisoft is supposed to have a policy that supposedly discounts their software if you have ever bought the software at any time in the past, while once again experimenting with it about 18 months ago, I asked the reseller to check that out for me.  Guess what?  GraphiSoft said that they "couldn't find those records."  So much for their discounting policy for a former owner. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2013 18:09
From: Paul Aubin
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit

Hey Dennis:

Another excellent point.

Nice to hear from you. Hope all is well. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------

As it was mentioned in a previous comment, it's a really bad idea to base opinions of BIM software on ancient experiences or even old versions of software. You are comparing this year's Revit LT to last years ArchiCAD STAR(T) edition. That's just like comparing ArchiCAD 16 to Revit 2011. So much changes with each version. And in fact both light versions have made huge leaps in recent years (including not existing until recently). For some thoughts on the ArchiCAD STAR(T) 2013, which isn't officially out yet in the USA and some links to Revit LT 2013 vs Revit 2013, check it out here:
http://www.shoegnome.com/2013/01/15/archicad-start-2013-vs-revit-lt-2013/

It's worth stating that the Beta vs VHS analogy is a really misplaced analog. Peer pressure was bad for us in junior high and it's bad for us today. We need an open software environment. To have our industry beholden to one large company is a HUGE HUGE HUGE mistake. Fortunately that's not the case as there are a lot of giants other than Autodesk, such as Trimble, Nemetesck, Bentley, etc. Neither of these programs are going anywhere and that's good for us. That's great for us actually. Competition between software companies trying to make us happy is wonderful. Also you've got a bunch of your ArchiCAD facts a bit garbled so I hope people take your views as personal anecdotes and not hard facts. Finally for reference the .mod file extension is used by a lot of different programs, including ArchiCAD for different things. So it's not surprising that ArchiCAD assumed they were all archicad files.

-------------------------------------------
Jared Banks AIA
Saint Paul MN
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-11-2013 18:27
From: Rand Soellner
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit

This thread, which I started, is supposed to be about Revit LT versus full Revit.
However, some folks have thought to also discuss ArchiCad and extol its virtues.  I guess everyone has their own favorites.  I did want to add some facts: ArchiCad does have a discounted version, called Star(t).  It is very hard to find a price for this online (which tells you something about how tightly such information is held among their dealers), but it appears to be somewhere around $1,900 +/-.  The logical comparison for this would not be full Revit, but rather, Revit LT.  I just bought the Revit LT 2013 Suite, which includes not only Revit LT, but AutoCad 2013 LT and a 1 year subscription, which means that when version 2014 comes out, I get that for no additional cost.  Oh yeah: the cost: $1,111 on Amazon.  Incredible deal.  Full Revit Architecture can be had for around $5400+/- and the AutoDesk Building Design Suite for around $6,100 if you know where to look.  However, the point about Revit LT is this: AutoDesk's philosophy with all of their LT (light) softwares is to provide about 80% of the functionality for about 20% of the price.  Revit LT is no exception to this.  In other words, ArchiCad Start is really about twice as much as Revit LT (which I have seen by itself for right around $1k). 

Here's the more important aspect: do you remember Beta videotapes?  VHS won.  Same thing with AutoDesk software.  Do you really want to end up with the Beta version of 3D/BIM?  I tried ArchiCad.  Didn't like it.  Wasn't intuitive to someone who has been using AutoCad for 20+ years.  Nothing is similar.  Revit, on the other hand, is made by the same people that make AutoCad.  The interface, while different, because it is 3D, is still closer, on some procedures than an Apple product (yeah, I know, it works on PCs these days, too). 

I'm not sure, but I don't think you get 3D animation walk-throughs with ArchiCad Start.  You DO with Revit LT.  Also, AutoDesk will render still images for you in the cloud, if you have their subscription, which means: your computer can continue to be used to design and do other work, while AutoDesk crunches your images for you.  Contrary to popular opinion, the AutoDesk subscription is optional.  I verified this both while talking directly to an AutoDesk rep and to an AutoDesk reseller.  It does, however, make pretty good sense.  For instance, the subscription on Revit LT is around $225/year.  If you have the full version, or the Bldg Des Suite, of course it will be more. 

Also, some unexpected things can happen with ArchiCad files.  When I downloaded it, about 18 months ago, to try its latest version, it hijacked all of my video files.  Anything with an ".MOD" suffix, it reoriented to become an ArchiCad file.  What a mess.  And quite frankly, not much that I read online or tried to learn from the online tutorials for ArchiCad made much sense to me, in terms of "what buttons do I push?"  I did try to go through their tutorials, when I downloaded the trial software and it just had no relevance for me: working with "slabs" (instead of Revit: which works with actual construction systems and allows you modify those systems layer, by layer).  Also, the GraphiSoft reseller admitted that ArchiCad Start wasn't very good with complex walls and in fact, may not work at all in that regard.  Revit is: Revit LT can handle just about any kind of wall.  I'm sure full ArchiCad can also, but it seems that their "light" version doesn't seem to be as robust as Revit LT.  Do what you will and I'm sure that old-time dyed in the wool Apple people who have been using ArchiCad for years may find it useful; but I'd rather use what the rest of the world has determined to be the universal 3D/BIM program for the AEC community.  And: I actually understand most of it... at least, so far.  It seems logical.  Like any 3D/BIM software, this is something new to how Architects are used to drawing, so there will be cuss words with anything like this, with ArchiCad as well, I am sure.  Which is why you can contact AutoDesk for support.  I continue to receive knowledgeable solutions from AutoDesk staff on their forums, even though I have just now purchased the software.  They are forthcoming with useful answers.  I participated in Project Spark last summer (which has become Revit LT). 

One final word about Graphisoft: I bought and actually owned Archicad and a Mac around 1989.  After getting frustrated with it during the next year, I finally dumped it as a tax writeoff.  What a waste.  Thinking that Graphisoft is supposed to have a policy that supposedly discounts their software if you have ever bought the software at any time in the past, while once again experimenting with it about 18 months ago, I asked the reseller to check that out for me.  Guess what?  GraphiSoft said that they "couldn't find those records."  So much for their discounting policy for a former owner. 

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Home Architects
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------







Original Message:
Sent: 03-08-2013 18:09
From: Paul Aubin
Subject: Revit LT vrs Full Revit

Hey Dennis:

Another excellent point.

Nice to hear from you. Hope all is well. 

-------------------------------------------
Paul Aubin Assoc. AIA
Author/Consultant
Paul F. Aubin Consulting Services
Oak Lawn IL
-------------------------------------------