Committee on Design

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  • 1.  Fee Structure

    Posted 03-25-2011 04:33 PM

    What is it going to take to have competitive salaries in the architectural profession compared to that of other professionals? What is it that keeps architects fees flat when others in the medical, IT and legal industry keep climbing? Is it simply educating clients? is it because we're somewhat tied to the construction industry, development and capitalism? Is it a lack of "need" from our clients? Obviously in this recession it is hard to keep fees pre 2008 and keep the dwindled pool of clients, but try that excuse when you talk to your lawyer or dentist. I feel like I am selling a car sometimes with negotiating my proposals.
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    Richard Chuk AIA
    Principal
    Richlind Architects LLC
    Lombard IL
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  • 2.  RE:Fee Structure

    Posted 03-28-2011 08:14 AM
    Richard,

    I feel exactly the same way.  It feels like architectural services have become nothing more than a commodity which can be purchased at the lowest price.  With increasing pressure from clients to get the job done faster, more efficiently and within budget it often feels like we're trying to just break even rather than make an actual profit.  It also doesn't help that there are many developers out there who lobby for decreased architectural service requirements.  I think in order for the fee structure to change it will take a unilateral movement across the board.  As architecture professionals, we need to cohesively stand together and demand a fee becoming of our talents, skill set and commitment. 

    I was talking with some friends this weekend and their perception of an architect and their salaries is only what they know of from movies or stereotypes.  They had no idea how the fee structure actually worked.  They assumed if a building cost 30M to build that the architect/designer received the lions share of the fee.  I got a good laugh out of that.  The point being is that you hit the nail on the head when you talked about educating the client.  As professionals I believe we need to educate the client in regards to the fee structure.  I know there will always be budgets and clients who don't have a lot of money, but the fact is that people don't come to an architect unless they have money to spend. 

    We are losing more and more talented people to other industries because of the lack of compensation.  If we are to survive, we are going to have to unite and move forward as a whole.

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    Jay Anderson Assoc. AIA
    Carlson West Povondra Architects
    Omaha NE
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  • 3.  RE:Fee Structure

    Posted 03-29-2011 10:47 AM
    Does AIA, or any other organization for that matter, have a concise, official definition or statement  as to what an Architect is, does, why essential to the built environment, why an engineer or industrial designer, or whoever else with the necessary skills, can't program, design, build, organize teams to achieve project goals, make impressive graphics that motivate and inform towards optimal decisions, etc.

    Our group, which does an awful lot of design and construction is currently defining organizational competencies, none of which that I've yet seen include the word, or little more than a slight suggestion of "architect".  Seems "engineers" are the only group that people generally perceive can get things done efficiently and effectively.  There are challenges in defending the word, much less the profession as having some unique qualifications or skills that are essential to basic health, safety and welfare.  

    Having been long separated from it, am pondering academia -the part played, or not played in defining the profession, separating the profession from the study of Architecture, or perhaps distraction from the core necessities of the profession. 
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    Donald Myers AIA
    Senior Architect
    Richmond VA
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  • 4.  RE:Fee Structure

    Posted 03-28-2011 09:36 AM
    We obviously must be careful about the discussion of fees - remember the AIA Consent Decree of the late 1980's.  In my humble opinion, that is one of the culprits of our position compared to other professionals.  In our capitalistic, free-market society, you are competing with the lowest common denominator - low cost is going to be sold by the lazy and unimaginitive - making our services a commodity instead of value-added.

    In other words, you are competing with the recently-licensed 28 year old working out of the back of his car after he was laid off from XYZ Architects - he was expendable.  In the marketplace, however, he has a distinct advantage - he can offer what looks like the same service for very low cost.  What does he have to lose?  

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    Jan Burgess AIA
    Treanor Architects
    Lawrence KS
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  • 5.  RE:Fee Structure

    Posted 03-28-2011 10:23 AM
    Richard,

    I feel exactly the same way.  It feels like architectural services have become nothing more than a commodity which can be purchased at the lowest price.  With increasing pressure from clients to get the job done faster, more efficiently and within budget it often feels like we're trying to just break even rather than make an actual profit.  It also doesn't help that there are many developers out there who lobby for decreased architectural service requirements.  I think in order for the fee structure to change it will take a unilateral movement across the board.  As architecture professionals, we need to cohesively stand together and demand a fee becoming of our talents, skill set and commitment. 

    I was talking with some friends this weekend and their perception of an architect and their salaries is only what they know of from movies or stereotypes.  They had no idea how the fee structure actually worked.  They assumed if a building cost 30M to build that the architect/designer received the lions share of the fee.  I got a good laugh out of that.  The point being is that you hit the nail on the head when you talked about educating the client.  As professionals I believe we need to educate the client in regards to the fee structure.  I know there will always be budgets and clients who don't have a lot of money, but the fact is that people don't come to an architect unless they have money to spend. 

    We are losing more and more talented people to other industries because of the lack of compensation.  If we are to survive, we are going to have to unite and move forward as a whole.

    -------------------------------------------
    Jay Anderson Assoc. AIA
    Carlson West Povondra Architects
    Omaha NE
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  • 6.  RE:Fee Structure

    Posted 03-29-2011 06:54 AM
    I have taught in one of our schools of architecture and was grateful for the teaching position when I was starting in the field but I question the fate of the reported 50,000 students currently in architecture programs. Where will they work?
    The questions raised in this forum are important. See the discussion on physician salaries in this blog:
    http://wallstreetpit.com/5769-the-medical-cartel-why-are-md-salaries-so-high
    Note that the AMA answered the forum. They are not sleeping on this.

    The AIA consent decree does not prevent the AIA from working to influence legislation or other government actions that would influence the requirement for architectural services or assistance or protection for the profession. Architecture's tradition as a rich man's pursuit causes its practitioners to eschew self promotion and self protection yet the medical profession is self protecting through legislation. Imagine a law that would assist an architectural student with the cost of their education!
    Other countries have great doctors and lively vital medical professions with far less stringent and restrictive educational requirements than the US. There is no justification for the restrictive entrance requirements or cost of education of doctors in the US and worse it does little to protect the population from medical malpractice.
    My nephew is studying medicine in Bogota Colombia and began rounds in hsi second year of study. My son who is pre-med can study anything for four years before even beginning to think about medicine. talented young students with an interest in medicine drift away to other fields in the overly long run up to a profession that erects absurd barriers to entry.
    Do we want the AIA to do this for us? Is it worth the public scorn that many feel for the medical profession? I think not. We tolerate them because we feel we might die without them...

    We could use a framework for revolution in fees and practice in this profession but it should not be a price fixing scheme or an artificial numerical restriction on entry. The reason for the consent decree was that the AIA published an actual price list to be observed by AIA members. Never mind that the insurance compaies do the very same thing de facto with fee for service regulation. We would not want that for architects either.

    What the AIA could and should do is to educate people about what services should (dare I say must) be included in architectural services to be a competent and professional service. Those who feel forced to offer cheap services often do so by cutting corners and doing less. Cutting corners is incompetent and negligent by definition. The AIA might educate the public on what an architect should be including would discourage those who reduce services inappropriately to fit a low fee. That would depend of course on getting the AIA members to agree on what should compose a service, not an easy task.



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    Ethan Anthony AIA
    President
    Cram and Ferguson Architects
    Concord MA
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  • 7.  RE:Fee Structure

    Posted 03-28-2011 07:10 PM

    It's a case of supply and demand. There are too many architects, and it's too easy to be licensed
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    Charles Graham AIA
    Architect
    O'Neal, Inc.
    Greenville SC
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  • 8.  RE:Fee Structure

    Posted 03-29-2011 02:19 PM

    I would add to the supply and demand issue that we are not truly relevant to the general public.  We gave too much away when we said that we are no longer responsible for means and methods and for any type of engineering.  We know a lot about a lot, but we are not liable for the money generating aspects of our work.  We are no longer a master builder, we are no longer an expert in building, saving energy, but a generalist, and what do we have left?  We are PM's and stylists.  We are really only valuable to clients when we program, design (SD), layout out a building (SD) and organize the project teams.  But most clients don't want to pay for this, so they go to a contractor and get an "okay" design at a cheap price.    I think the other confusing aspect is all the attention we spend on technology to help us model our buildings.  We spend a great deal of time working with BIM models but have not said that we are going to get paid for all this building knowledge.  The contractor and owner is benefiting from BIM more than we are.  I don't know any office that has not struggled to make REVIT profitable.  I agree that it is the future, but we have to get paid for helping make the constructive process better.  Just another aspect where we are giving our future away by not charging for our value added.
    I think the AIA needs to think about the continuing education, BIM, sustainability, and its role completely different.  We need to specialize and have high standards for continuing ed.  We need to have certificates for specialties.  We need to have clear contracts which add the BIM factor to a project to get more fee as a percentage of savings to the owner.  We need to continue to market the 2030 challenge as savings to clients and charge for that life cycle savings, and we need to continually lobby and build our political clout.


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    SPA AIA
    Minneapolis MN
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