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Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

  • 1.  Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 10-28-2011 07:23 AM

    I am both disappointed and surprised by several of the comments related to "Occupy Wall Street".  What architect or other business professional in their right mind would advocate for or admire this call to anarchy?  None would that have been paying attention to anything going on in this so called movement.   

     

    How many people involved in it are policemen, or firemen, or farmers, or doctors, or lawyers?  How many of the people involved are business owners of any type?  How many of the people involved even have the resources, position, or need to hire you?

     

    Or let me ask it a different way.

     

    How many of your clients would join this group in public defecation & urination?  How many of your clients are unemployed? How many of your clients advocate violence as a justifiable means to their end? How many of your clients, past or present have spent a night on the street in one of these groups? 

     

    How many of your clients would instead be "tarred and feathered" as one writer in this forum advocated for "bankers and their ilk"? How many of us would be similarly treated or have no aspirations of reaching such an income level?  How many of us might be similarly treated as co-conspirators for even doing projects for these clients?

     

    These are rhetorical questions of course, because VERY FEW if ANY of us or our clients would benefit from the socialistic aspirations being advocated. 

     

    The comments on this topic don't really belong in our professional forums at all, but if there is going to be an advocacy from the AIA, it should be against the OWS movement, not for it! Where is that outcry against these posts from the professionals within our organization?



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    Kim Otten AIA
    The Evangelical Lutheran Good Samaritan Society
    Sioux Falls SD
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 2.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 10-28-2011 11:11 AM
    Some call it anarchy....

    "Some writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness Positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher.

    Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil in its worst state an in tolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer!" -Thomas Paine, "Common Sense", 1776



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    David Del Vecchio AIA
    Architect
    David Del Vecchio, Architect, LLC
    Cranford NJ
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 3.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 10-31-2011 07:28 AM
    Nit picking the things you don't like about a movement like this is very easy. You would be surprised by the attendance of people from every facet of society. Have you seen Occupiers in SD? This isn't about urinating in public or anarchy. I have had many middle class clients over the last 3 years with a spouse that's unemployed, so quit shaming the victims. Each and every one of us has been affected by the Housing Crash whether you design residences or not. Those of you who refuse to recognize the banker's role in destroying our profession are doomed to keep supporting the constant destruction of our profession every decade or so. Each time we get back up on our feet, the next S&L bailout or Housing Crash comes in and knocks us back down again. It's very depressing to see that many of us continue to support the madness that brought us to this point. 

    I blame the banks 100%! They hired the appraisers that certified loan values that shouldn't have existed until 2030 and the banks made them official when closing the loan and making the sale. Once the sale is made public, any appraiser can use that sale to justify another ridiculous amount. For some reason most of America still seems rather convinced that it's normal for the average price of a house to double in less than a decade. Historically speaking, we've never seen such a ludicrous spike in property value in such a short period of time. Bankers knowingly lent money to people that they knew couldn't afford it, yet lied to them about it. When my uncle was with Countrywide, this is exactly what he was asked to do. Why? Because by 2005 no middle class person could afford to buy a home based on the traditional 80% loan to value ratio and the traditional qualifiers for income and assets. Everyone who didn't put 30-40% down was getting an exotic loan, whether they realized it or not. Only exotic loans can allow people to qualify for amounts they traditionally don't qualify for. The price of real estate went up so fast while wages were flat that it was a matter of time before people were blindsided by the fact that they couldn't afford the loan the banker said they could afford. The banks have a responsibility to themselves NOT to lend people more money than they could afford and this was their main strategy. The banks knew 9 of 10 clients would pay their debts until too many started losing jobs.

    I'm getting sick and tired of everyone shaming the victims of this crisis. As if only some of the houses were over priced. I'm getting sick and tired of everyone defending the banks for knowingly ripping off millions of Americans and destroying our economy and profession in the process. In GA there used to be over 12,000 Architects and the last time I looked we had 5,500. Hate the Occupiers because it's politically convenient, but they are defending the sustainability of our profession. Those of you who think this crisis could of been averted if we just tweaked the last plan a little and that we can have property values endlessly spike out of control while wages are now going backwards, you are a fool. The banks are still behaving pretty much the same and no one else is doing anything about it. With thousands of Occupiers with different grievances, of course the specific messages vary, but the big picture is to bring awareness to the shadiness of Wall Street and the fact that nothing has changed. What are you doing?

    Our profession depends on the fiscal sustainability of our lending apparatus. Keep focusing on the minutia because it's politically convenient, but the big picture is quite clear. Concentrating the wealth in fewer and fewer hands is not going to create more clients for us, nor is it going to make YOUR business or paycheck any better. Being a Martyr for the Rich is not going to improve your life or your business even if all your money comes from 1%er clients. A consumer based economy needs consumers and the rich have devastated the consumer class. The rich will not survive if we continue down this path. Who will buy their goods and services that made them rich? Once they've destroyed us, they will turn on themselves and no one will be commissioning you to design multimillion dollar buildings again.

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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 4.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-01-2011 12:44 AM
    Mr. Rawlings,
      Shaming the victims?  Ex ACORN staffers are going into homeless shelters and paying the homeless $10/hour to protest, then sending them to canvas areas for donations under false pretense to fund the continued protest.  Heck even the homeless are turning away and saying it isn't right. 

    As for the banks, they are but a vehicle of our monetary system, they are not our government.  It is our government's responsibility to regulated such vehicles (much like the DMV regulates vehicles and drivers).  To put the entire blame on the bank is analogous to blaming the car that kills or maims a crowd of people at a farmers market.  Sure the car was the vehicle that did the damage, but there was a driver in that car and there should have been barricades to protect those people, not to mention the people themselves that should have hear and seen the raging car coming.

    I have yet to see any martyrs for the rich, have you?  If we punish those that have developed a means from which to profit for any circumstance in our profession, then we are certain to perish.  This movement has nothing to do with the unemployment of the masses, but everything to do with this election cycle.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ricardo Ramos Assoc. AIA, LEED® AP, CSI
    Alpha Analysis, Inc.
    Arcadia CA
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 5.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-02-2011 12:48 AM


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    Brian Hart AIA
    Delta BC
    -------------------------------------------
    Has anyone considered that, in the context of 7 Billion people in the world that everyone in The US and Canada is in the 1%.  Just saying.





    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 6.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-02-2011 08:00 AM
    Ricardo,
    So ACORN is up to it again under another alias. I thought all those protesters looked homeless. If this bothers you then what about that Freedom bus with the RNC paid for protestors that wheel into each pre-scheduled "protest" complaining about tea, taxes, and government Health Care? FOX even posted all the dates like it's a concert tour. Now that's a corporate manufactured protest. OWS began organically and even spread outside the country. So, is ACORN paying homeless in Europe to protest too?


    Listen to how you spread the blame to dilute it and ultimately let the banks off the hook. Your vehicle analogy is quite weak, as these old folks that hit the gas instead of brake are still held responsible for the damage and injuries. The government can regulate all day, but is it the government's fault when someone commits a murder with a regulated (registered) gun? Someone is always responsible for a car accident, I have yet to hear it was a draw. The banks didn't just follow a lousy set of regulations that I'll bet I can get you to defend. They went well beyond government regulations into the territory of fraud and this is what you're unwilling recognize. By supporting and defending the system that blew up our economy and destroyed our profession, that makes you a Martyr for the Rich. This support many like you are willing to give Wall St will only make this blow up in all of our faces again.

    What's your rationale? No one should have bought a house between 2003-2007 because they should have all been real estate experts and knew the houses were all overpriced? No one is getting pregnant, married, or changing locations for work during this time? Again, enough with shaming the victims and defending the perpetrators. My uncle explained the shadiness of what his boss at Countrywide asked of him. When houses became completely unaffordable, they had to con people into taking out a loan for way more than they could afford just to keep moving houses. I don't think you're mentally grasping what happens when the most expensive commodity an American will buy in a life time just doubles in value so quickly while the economy was sliding. This wouldn't have worked in the best of economic times.

    The lender is responsible for qualifying these people. The lender is responsible for not throwing their money away on investments they knew were way overpriced. It's the bank's house until you make the last payment, so it's is their responsibility to make sure their clients are capable of paying their debts. I know for a fact that people like my uncle were asked to prey on people and over extend them on purpose. He had the self respect to quit over it, but this doesn't have anything to do with regulations. They had a responsibility to their own businesses not to lend people more than they could afford and what happened when they ran their businesses into the ground? They took our tax money and gave the top bonuses. Both Tea Party and OWS alike are upset that these people could run their businesses like kids in a candy shop or Charlie Sheen in a brothel and they got rewarded for it, while the rest of us would normally have to accept our failure. The Free Market works differently for bankers and this is at the core of what OWS wants to change.

    I'll bet you're that guy who gets pulled over for speeding and the first thing you say to the officer is, "The guy in front of me was speeding too. Why didn't you pull him over?" Always sharing the blame with everyone to take the eyes off the responsible party. Gee, I wish Architects could do that. It seems we're always responsible for everyone under our contract and everything they do. We get sued for the mechanical system failing. Maybe you could be useful in figuring out a way for Architects to pull the same childish blame sharing game to reduce our liability and we could all pay less in liability insurance.


    -------------------------------------------
    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 7.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-03-2011 02:13 AM
    Dear Mr. Rawlings,
      That is exactly my point.  This is election cycle theater at its best.  The Left is in an unpopular position in this election cycle, so they do as all nationalist socialist parties do, they strike a very "real" popular sentiment of social injustice and then set up the "1%" or "Rich" strawman as the scapegoat.  Its a wonderful distraction and works every time.  But don't take my word for it, just look at the history of Venezuela, Cuba, Germany, and other countries where socialism took a major win from a former capitalism position.  The same goes for the GOP, only their tack is different, but as we all saw, they made major gains in the last election cycle with their "protest concert tour"

    The analogy of the car is actually quite accurate.  You see the banks are the vehicle, the Banking Oversight Committee and the FED are the drivers and the President and Congress ride along as passengers, the barricades were Great Depression laws that separated banking and investment operations.  Senator Barney Franks has been the ranking chairman and regulator for four presidents, three Fed Chairman's and the biggest defender credit easing through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.  He was the key figure in the repeal of Glass-Stegal Act, the key member that rejected any regulation of derivatives in mortgage back securities and continues to keep the government in the mortgage backing business with Fannie and Freddy.  That is nearly 20 years of defrauding the public trust (and making millions) by driving the banking "car" into the crowds and yet there is not even one mention about him in all of your postings.  If knowing who the driver of the proverbial banking regulation car is and with such knowledge I move to get out of the way makes me a martyr for the Rich, then I must really question if you understand the source of your frustration.

    This individual is the chief perpetrator that enabled company's like Countrywide and others to engage in predatory lending.  Prior to the credit easing actions in the Clinton administration, such predatory lending was limited to insurance company's because the government was not guaranteeing mortgage backed securities.  Anyone with half a brain knows the risk of the sub-prime market, but then we had Senator Franks diving the full faith of the government taxpayer to cover these toxic credit risks and then openly allowed the banks and Wall St. to hide them by bundling them into in mortgage backed securities as derivatives.  Even if you bought or sold prime market mortgage backed securities, these derivative would be latch deep inside there like terminal cancer.  This is why the banking system melted down and has so badly affected our profession.  But who was the real criminal here?  The banks who unwittingly bought the toxic mortgage backed securities or the regulators ran through all of the barricade that had been erected to prevent just that sort of thing from happening - since the last Great Depression?  Why has Senator Franks not been indicted along with Chairman Bernanke and Greenspan? 

    I challenge you, that the distraction from the true culprits of our current financial crisis, will allow them to continue to screw the American people until we go bankrupt.  The sentiment is world wide because other countries bought our mortgage backed securities. Now that they have our toxic stuff in their portfolio's, there is no way for them to get rid of it.  Iceland for example is now so heavily indebted to the UK because of this horrific mess (they were heavily leverage in Goldman Sac's), that their situation makes the Greece meltdown look like speed bump.  But that is the genius of the OWS organization, it is based on half truths surrounded by very real sore sentiment and that is why it is so wildly popular...and far from organic.  If you actually ask any of these protestors individually why they protest and actually inquire into their personal situation, you will find that its the sentiment that brought them to the protest and not the OWS manifesto.

    As for speeding tickets, well as a former police officer I dislike the citations, but I own up to them because I know exactly who the driver was and why I was pulled over.  Now if everyone else would own up to their reality movements like the OWS would not exist.  No one needs to be an expert to know what they cannot afford.  If your argument is that American's have become so financially ignorant that they cannot figure this out for themselves, well then this meltdown is just what they needed.  My six year old can figure out that out.

    My point is that capitalism means personal profit and personal loss, not personal profit and social loss, however that is exactly what our government has done.  All of the bank bailout's should never have happened.  The market would have consumed and redistributed the remains of those banks to the survivors.  But Senator Franks, Speaker Pelosi and their cronies put the American taxpayer into the banking business with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, so now we have gotten screwed twice, and yet they have kept their jobs and will probably be reelected this cycle because of the OWS distraction.


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    Ricardo Ramos Assoc. AIA, LEED® AP, CSI
    Alpha Analysis, Inc.
    Arcadia CA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 8.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-04-2011 07:19 AM
    This is going to keep going on and on and on with you. I believe we all agree regulations were nearly nonexistent, lenders preyed on people (which was and still is illegal), BUT the key point that no one is acknowledging is the property values doubling. You haven't had a single explanation for the root of the problem which led to the predatory lending, the derivatives, and ultimately the crash. It seems that many people have a mental block about what happens when the same exact house doubles in value in less than a decade when wages are flat and the economy was sliding. Do you seriously think it's normal for the most expensive commodity an American will buy in a lifetime, a commodity that takes 30 years to pay off and it just doubles almost instantly? You are focused on the results and not the root cause. If property values didn't go up so fast, no one would be underwater. One house at a time, the banks and their appraisers started fudging what they were worth. Mathematical flaws and fraud in the appraisals allowed this to happen. Lack of regulators or regulations may have been partially responsible, but it was fraudulent behavior none the less. The banks knew that historic data could not come close to supporting this phenomenon, yet they had no choice but to keep packing people into houses after it was too late. Other than Oil, Housing was the only thing going for Bush's economy and when they pushed those values up higher than what wages would support, people started losing homes. The banks conned people just like Madoff, except they didn't turn themselves in, making Madoff a better man in my mind. The con was brilliant because millions of appraisers and individual lenders all participated as accomplices and they all knew they were doing something wrong.

    I design mostly residences and I do many at spec. Spec houses sell right away (at least mine do), so you can see exactly what the market is doing. When you design houses for a rich end user, that house may sell in two decades at a used price, not exactly helping one gauge what the market is saying about your work today. By watching my houses sell, I saw many of these fraudulent activities first hand and not in some news article trying to levy all the blame on Freddie & Freddie or Planned Parenthood. You and your like minded friends always present it as if Fannie & Freddie allowing people to qualify beyond their means only happened to irresponsible greedy poor people and that this was the root cause, not the fact that they needed to qualify for the same house that just doubled in price. Do you think people with money weren't qualifying beyond their means? Newsflash! By 2005, almost everyone was qualifying for a loan that was beyond their means because real estate was that overpriced for everyone. No one was buying a smaller house. High Middle Class suburbs lost more money via foreclosures and much of this was because of builders not selling an entire subdivision of half built spec houses. There is always an underlying tone that this was all the fault of irresponsible poor people, yet data is proving quite different. How many beach condos in Miami were lost via foreclosure? How many of those were poor people purchases? 

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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 9.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-07-2011 09:38 AM
    Dear Mr. Rawlings, et al.
      My source regarding the root of the financial crisis comes from the currently vice president of risk management for Bank of America and before that he was the head of the risk management division for Countrywide.  He shares no love for the lending practices that his executives have performed, but did tell me that they had begun such practices into the sub prime market when it first became legal under the Clinton administration. 

    As for home prices doubling, well that is the simple result of over saturation of economic "buyers" that should never have been in the market in the first place.  Much like the dot com bubble that burst in the 90's, over valuation of dot com company's were directly correlated to nonexistent actually consumers that could support such a valuation.  It's simple economics, land and housing development will always follow demand.  If the demand is artificially increased, in this case with the easing of credit in the in the sub prime market to traditionally unqualified borrowers , then it would appear that there is greater demand in the prime market thus spurring additional development.  However since development and resale are not checked to each other, real estate resale of existing stock will grossly increase the price of a home two to three hundred percent with no actual increase in "board & nail cost" until development and inventory appear to meet the demand. 

    In California, it was not until the "flipping" of homes became illegal, that property values began to slow down their exponential growth in value.  A particular house with an ocean view in Orange County, had been bought and sold six times in the matter of three months with consecutive titles being recorded within days of each other.  The run up in price was over 300%!  Now somewhere some sap was sold this bill of goods, obviously without doing any research as to the true valuation of the property using a more conventional method of escalation.  Did the banks care? No, they were being told by their government to extend credit beyond what their risk managers were balking at and they profited handsomely from it...until the bubble burst.  That is when the banks should have been let to crash and burn!  But instead we heard the Speaker of the House, whose party controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency...force through the biggest bailout package in the history of the world under the motto that "these banks are to big to fail".  But it didn't end there now did it.  Three bail outs later, that party lost control of the house. Just in the news yesterday, Fannie and Freddie need 6.6 billion dollars more and guess whose holding that bag.

    I understand the OWS sentiment, the feelings are true, but completely misguided.  I actually stopped by an OWS rally in the OC recently to ask a few protestors why they were there.  Initially they all recanted the same sound bites we all hear in the news, but when I asked them who their Mayor was or who their State legislators were, they were stumped.  I went so far as to ask who their congressional representatives were in the House and Senate.  By now I was not entirely surprised to find out that only one in the six I spoke to was even able garner a guess of one of their representatives and the response was "...I think it's something Boxer...".  (In CA, that would be Senator Barbara Boxer.)  My guess is that most of these people are either not well educated in civics, don't participate in their local, state and even national political process or simply dislike what their political party in power had done but don't wish to blame them for it.  When you get Obama saying "he on their side" and they don't say a peep about how it was his hand that signed the bank bailouts - which they are protesting - into law, well that's were their credibly evaporates.

    I don't deny that money buys power, it always has, however historically citizens in pluralists groups have been very effective in checking such power grabs through civic means.  Here in CA, we have an initiative process that dates back to the Gold Rush days, when wealth speculators received cart blanch powers from the State Legislature and Governor.  The process allowed for the citizenry to stand up to obvious corruption within the system.  Our state legislature, which has been monopolized by a single majority party for the past 40 years, has had it laws overturned dozens of times by this process, the most recent being a state constitutional amendment.

    If the OWS folks were truly seeking reform, they would Occupy their State and national capitals.  Isn't it ironic that the only State capital that was ever "occupied" was the Republican controlled Wisconsin state house when governor Walker moved to stave off bankruptcy in that state.  It is very telling when the same community organizers that lead that "occupation" have been found behind many of the OWS sites.

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    Ricardo Ramos Assoc. AIA, LEED® AP, CSI
    Alpha Analysis, Inc.
    Arcadia CA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 10.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-08-2011 07:16 AM
    You're clearly entrenched in an extremist conservative universe. I'm just trying point out the flaws in the system that got us here and you're more concerned about scapegoating Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi. We're annoying everyone here, because these people didn't come here for a discussion about politics, nor did I, yet your whole world revolves around how lefties are ruining your life. I'm not interested in your political views, yet you keep dragging this discussion into a right winger blame game. I think both political parties are to blame and could care less about the score. Say what you want, but talking to you is toxic to the group, so I suggest you go rant with like minded people on a Fox blog or something.

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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 11.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-09-2011 01:28 AM
    Really Mr. Rawlings? Extremist conservative universe?  You state you point the flaws in the system, but completely negate the career politicians that put the flaws into the system and continue to maintain that status quo? Really Mr. Rawlings, ruining my life?...ha, ha...

    So do you find it appropriate to make personal attacks when your arguments fall apart?  I completely agree with Mr. Higgins and Mr. Dunakoskie, (as I stated in my very first post) this is not the forum for any of this stuff.  However I will never back down to folks promoting irrational arguments or resorting to personally attacks to save those failed arguments.  That is never appropriate in any venue.  This is not about politics, it's about critical thinking, a skill that we architects are supposed to be trained and capable at.  My sources are not talk show hosts nor political parties, but history itself by those first hand witnesses involved in the events as they unfolded.  The political spin doctors and media has graciously twisted current events to poise their enemies in a poor light, but the raw facts tell a very different story. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" George Santayana

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    Ricardo Ramos Assoc. AIA, LEED® AP, CSI
    Alpha Analysis, Inc.
    Arcadia CA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 12.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-09-2011 08:11 AM
    Mr. Rawlings;

    It sounds like you drank a whole lot of the Kool Aid. You sound exactly like Lawrence O'Donnell. I'm sure you have a more open-minded view than most of us. May I suggest that you take your open mind back a step or two, refocus your lens, allow room for other opinions, and try to see things as they really are. In my younger years I thought along similar lines as you. But gradually I saw through the smoke screen of the liberal mantra. I saw how the truly powerful were using and exploiting the genuinely compassionate feelings of many of us and using us as pawns to advance their own power and fortune. I now stand for independence in all forms. I am a sheep no more.

    We architects should concern ourselves less with politics and a whole lot more with the task of making our services relevant and valuable to the public. Most of the fault for our professional and business malaise lies with us. Nobody did this to us. Supporting any protest or political movement will have little effect on our prospects. We need to listen to our clients and the public and find ways to make ourselves valuable and essential in the design and construction of houses. Until we do that, we will continue to suffer. We can't aim our services only at the slim segment of the market that is very wealthy and looking for an artistic statement.

    Architects can be valuable to almost everyone building or remodeling a home. Let's figure out how to say and do that.

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    William Hirsch AIA
    William J. Hirsch Jr. Architect
    West End NC
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 13.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-09-2011 09:25 AM
    Mr. Rawlings, I echo the sentiments expressed in your post below.  This is an architecture forum. But also, it would be nice if those who post argued from facts rather than from predigested opinion coming from the rich paying the rich to tell the middle class that what makes the rich richer is best for everyone.

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    Leah Greenwald AIA
    Leah Greenwald, Architect
    Lexington MA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 14.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-04-2011 10:19 AM
    Can you guys just get each others' email addresses and continue this diatribe privately?  This discussion has degenerated to the point of being worthless and I for one would like to get back to professionally related discussion topics.  Like whining about the AIA for instance...

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    Mary Holley AIA
    President
    ma2 architects
    Basalt CO
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 15.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-04-2011 11:04 AM


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    Fred Flynn AIA
    Architect
    Fred Flynn Architect
    Santa Rosa CA
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    And I thought TV News 24/7 gave us only soundbites to make us believe their points of view.  I was hoping that we were above all that.  Maybe we should stick to Design and leave the politics alone if all we do is play the blame game like everyone else.

    Blaming Franks and Pelosi and "their cronies" for Fannie Mae (actually created during the Great Depression by President FDR and Congress in 1938 and Freddie Mac later in 1989) shows that you have your own limited point of view. Unless you were present during all the discussions and understood the history and all the parameters of any situation,  your view is limited.  It's your opinion,  not the facts. 

    Spin our political situation any way you wish but at least get your facts correct so we can listen to an intelligent discussion presenting a balanced view. 

    If each profession become its own audience,  is this how we want to present ourselves.

    And I thought better of our profession in gathering information to solve the problems we face.





    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 16.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-02-2011 05:35 PM

    Mr Ramos,

    Suggesting that congress should be responsible for regulating the banks and large corporations is overlooking two critical facts.  (1) the banks and the corporate interests have financed the election of many if not all members of congress, and (2) 50% of congress is already in the 1% of the most wealthy in our country.  You are assuming that the foxes can and will effectively guard the chickens.  
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    David Ludwig
    Sausalito CA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 17.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-09-2011 01:49 AM
    Mr. Ludwig,
      I don't over look these critical facts, but act in spite of them. At the turn of the last century a rugged independent politician took on the extremely wealthy of his day and brought about tremendous change to the Federal government and the economy.  His vigor was so intense that it earned him immortality as a face carved into Mt. Rushmore.  Teddy Roosevelt passed and rigorously enforced the first Anti-Trust laws against the biggest monopolies the world has ever known.  To this very day some still say that the specter of Standard Oil still looms heavily over the worlds energy production. 

    I agree with you that banks and corporations have financed much of our elected official's campaigns.  Our very own president had boldly stated that he will raise one billion dollars for his election campaign.  Last I checked the 99% didn't have that kind of cash, yet the OWS movement has yet to make even a single comment or protest about this in their manifesto against the 1%.  Heck they haven't even rebuffed those political party's that claim to support them and yet continue to receive hefty contributions from the very bank they are protesting.  This is why this smells heavily of election cycle propaganda...or as others have referred to it as "Chicago Style" politics, only on a national scale.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ricardo Ramos Assoc. AIA, LEED® AP, CSI
    Alpha Analysis, Inc.
    Arcadia CA
    -------------------------------------------






    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 18.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-01-2011 04:59 PM
    Eric, the American free market system has two very effective methods for indicating disgust with the actions of a bank or any other business: Stop buying it's products or regulate the unwanted behavior out of existence. Our political system has two very effective methods for regulating businesses and for creating any other legal changes we want made: Contact your leaders directly with the changes you want or vote in leaders that you know will enact and enforcee the legislation you favor. In our system, protesting is a gesture that ranks somewhere between empty symbolism and counter-productivity (turning people away from the cause).

    It's particularly empty when the group protesting specifically avoids having leaders, platforms and unified public relations. Just camping out in a park to show I'm cheesed off at the world doesn't solve my problems nor those of the country. I see no purpose to supporting such a group nor is it possible to know what values one would be supporting by expressing support for such a group. It's particularly counter-productive when the group's transgressions of social norms outweigh the vague benefits it aims to achieve.

    In assigning blame, I think we need to remember that the federal government used its power to create new rules for banks in 2005 that included a revision to the Community Reinvestment Act (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?position=all&page=44267&dbname=2005_register). Those changes said, in part: "The OCC's evaluation of a bank's CRA performance is adversely affected by evidence of discriminatory or other illegal credit practices," "The OCC rates a small bank's lending performance 'satisfactory' if, in general, the bank demonstrates:...A distribution of loans to and, as appropriate, other lending-related activities for individuals of different income levels (including low- and moderate-income individuals)...A reasonable geographic distribution of loans," "The OCC rates an intermediate small bank's community development performance 'outstanding' if the bank demonstrates excellent responsiveness to community development needs in its assessment area(s) through community development loans...Community development means: Activities that revitalize or stabilize-Low-or moderate-income geographies." In other words: banks were threatened with sanctions if they didn't underwrite a large number of mortgages for people who couldn't afford mortgages. Then, when people defaulted on the government-required bad (subprime) mortgages, banks failed, foreclosure blighted neighborhoods and the national economy declined. If no new rule had been created by the government, the catalyst for the crash would have been absent.

    You'll have to help me understand how lack of support for a protest is shaming victims. Many victims aren't part of the protest. Wouldn't supporting the protest be forgetting those victims who don't support it?        

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    Sean Catherall, AIA
    Herriman UT
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 19.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-02-2011 02:02 AM
    Sean -
    Please don't lull us into thinking that we have a free market in America when the subsidies for Big Oil, Big Ag, Big Auto and, of course, Big Banks are so apparent. It is this very lack of a free market that renders the "two very effective methods for regulating businesses and for creating any other legal changes we want made" increasingly dysfunctional. Letters to our leaders are no longer enough to address ever growing inequalities in our economy and in our political system.  Public discussion and debate, something our very divided country and leaders have avoided with extreme rhetoric, is needed to change a system that is clearly not working for a growing number of us.  The powerful voices of corporate "persons" bend the ears of our leaders away from the voices of average persons.  It is no wonder that people have resorted to camping out in parks to pool their voices in disgust at the enormous erosion of our democratic rights.  It is protesters such as these who have sparked much needed discussions to illuminate the crumbling foundations upon which our profession and our country is to thrive.

    -------------------------------------------
    Debora Gloria AIA
    Green Building Consultant
    Greenform
    Santa Monica CA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 20.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-06-2011 06:21 PM
    Debora, those who are dissatisfied with big business subsidies (of which I am one) should let their representatives know directly, vote them out of office if the response is inadequate and engage in public dialog about the subject. However, OWS is not a dialog. There is no message being conveyed. It is a Rorshach test.

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    Sean Catherall, AIA
    Herriman UT
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 21.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-07-2011 08:09 AM

    Guys and Gals,

    And, as to the "Baby Kings" in all of us...tis, tis, tis... Anarchy, really?  But, this dibbling discussion may be "right up my alley".

    Fountainhead, "strait verus straight", PACs, Tea Baggers and Hippies... This was the Residential Knowledge Community forum not Rush L's or Bill M's blog, right?

    I've been away for only a short while (designing trailer parks (oh right, modular housing developments, excuse me), but really "designing trailer parks" for rapid response, emergency housing, and tenement use) and we fallen into this squabble.

    Hum, must be a sign of the times with that "love it or leave it" response. Oh, that's right that quote came from "the right", sometime back, so no one can use that brand for the loosely termed OWS group (again, WTF or FTC, for the sensitive minded... Where's Their Fudge or Feed Them Cake).

    Moreover, this discussion or argument has neither one vein of solution in it nor any semblance of residential pontification other than evictions, right? So, why the blog or rather argument at all?  Again, a sign of the times - discord -?  Makes you want to go out to some other country and kill something or someone, right?

    And, for all you development minded supporter (and, that's who WE mostly service), 20 million out of work of which a few are your own AIA Brothers (oh, yeah and Sista's), where do you think they're going to go Starbucks? No, that corp's program did not include enough seating =:0

    Going to be a long cold winter folks, better get some matches or a hose depending on your positioning...

    -------------------------------------------
    Stephen Dunakoskie AIA
    Riordan Construction Group Inc
    Leesburg VA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 22.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-08-2011 09:33 AM


    -------------------------------------------
    Glenn Higgins AIA
    HMS Architects
    New Orleans LA
    -------------------------------------------
    Enough already!  Shouldn't we be about our business?  Stop the BS and start practicing architecture.  If the custom housing market is in the toilte, remember you are a licensed architect.  You can do anything you put your minds to.

    Stop wasting time on these stupid blogs and get yourself a new set of skills.  Schools, offices, hospitals, outhouses! Get out of your shell for Pete's sake and make something of yourselves!  The whining makes me nauseous.




    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 23.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-02-2011 10:51 AM
    Sean,

    You have got to be joking when suggest that folks "Contact your leaders directly with the changes you want or vote in leaders that you know will enact and enforcee the legislation you favor. "  I contact my elected politicians on a regular basis, expressing my concerns, even though it is as effective and satisfying as talking to a rock.  I am not a large campaign contributor so my expressed concerns never reach the politicians to whom I have written. I always get a form letter sent by a staff person as a response.  Nothing happens as a result of my contact.  Now if I attended an expensive fundraising dinner, the cost of which eliminates most of us from doing so, I could get the politician's ear and promote change that benefits me.  As long as money rules politics this will never change.

    Recent history proves the innaccuraciy of the statement that "In our system, protesting is a gesture that ranks somewhere between empty symbolism and counter-productivity (turning people away from the cause)."  I was a part of the movement that ended the war in Vietnam.  Our gesture could not be ranked as empty symbolism.

    Concerning the CRA and the government.  If a law was passed that permitted you to shoot and kill anyone that you did not like, would you do so ?  Or would your moral compass stop you ?  The govenrment was wrong and the greedy bankers were morally bankrupt.

    My brother was a lawyer who started involvement in local politics in High School.  After he passed the bar, he declined to get involved in politics.  I asked him why.  His response, from inside the system, was telling.  "By the time I get to where I can get things done I will owe too much to too many people to be independent."  He understood clearly that being a politician was to be an indentured servant to the rich and powerful.  He chose instead to work as and ADA and then to represent working folks in their claims against corporations.

    Professional politicians serve the folks who can give them money to get re-elected.  We need to return to the Congress being Citizen-Politicians who leave their professions, briefly serve the government and then return to their professions.  This is government by the people.

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    David Ringer AIA
    Lambertville NJ
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 24.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-06-2011 06:24 PM
    If your elected representative is non-responsive, organize a campaign to remove him from office; run for office yourself. If you're in the minority in your area and the majority prefers to keep him in office, how will OWS change his mind or the minds of the voters that can't be reached through a better effort?

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    Sean Catherall, AIA
    Herriman UT
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 25.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-02-2011 12:29 PM
    Sean,
    The free market system that applies to most American businesses doesn't apply to the banks. These banks ran their businesses into the ground by knowingly lending people more money than they could afford after encouraging a fictitious spike in real estate values. They literally gamed the housing market. At the end of the day millions of Americans from 2003-2007 signed for loans that were way overpriced and now they all owe the bank more money than their home should be worth for at least the next two decades when looking at historic data. The Wrath of the Free Market has coincidentally returned many houses to values more consistent with historic data via the foreclosure. Because the banks are necessary for our economy to function, they knew they could behave so badly that they could create an historic financial crisis, make mountains of money, and still get bailed out. Look at what has happened. For several years the banks got everyone to buy or refi their houses for much more money than any market analyst will agree was close to reasonable and now they get to collect that money despite what the market had to say about the real value today. Housing is not a pork belly stock. It is traditionally a far more stable commodity due to the longevity and expense of the item and should not have behaved like some tech stock that you can double your money on overnight. We got scammed, they got away with it, and many Americans refuse to recognize how this was more intentional and much less the fault of all the victims.

    The Occupiers are not there to make life convenient. They are there to bring attention to what the media and corporate interests keep distracting us from. I agree that many individuals in any protest are misguided, but they don't reflect the whole. The Tea Party is branded for many things a minority of them did. Wall Street wants us to shame ourselves for participating in the scam. What choice did some of us have? People get pregnant, don't want to waste money on rent, they get married, etc. Many bought homes for the first time and had no idea what a 2 bed 1 bath house costs, but knew they made more money than others who had bought same thing earlier. More people got burned that weren't being greedy, but the perpetrators want us to blame ourselves. 20 million foreclosures don't just pop up all the sudden. That's just crazy talk for anyone to defend this phenomenon. We need to fix banking regs to create stability and not inconvenience. We need Appraisal Reform that will keep values within the realm of economic reality and recognize individual effort over communal effort like the commodities sold in the rest of the free market. The banking industry owns the government and most of us, so many of us simply don't want to bite the hand that feeds us, yet we often forget that's a two way street. OWS is a wake up call to the country that we don't have to accept things the way they are because this isn't how it was in the first place when it was working right.

    The post I responded to was being dismissive about unemployed people saying they won't provide us with the next project, yet I've had several victims of this crisis as clients. They're essentially good for nothing because they're unemployed? The tone of some people like that is sickening, as if every unemployed person had it coming and it's their fault they don't have a job. That's shaming the victims.


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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 26.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 10-31-2011 10:58 AM
    to Kim Otten, one word; 
    AMEN!!!



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    John Hrivnak AIA
    Principal
    Hrivnak Associates, Ltd.
    Saint Charles IL
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 27.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-01-2011 06:40 AM
    It's funny that you choose 'Amen' as your one word. I'm sure Jesus is good with the concept of kicking the unfortunate while they're down while exalting the wealthy. How many 99%er Architects and Interns lost jobs due to this crisis? Are you sure you want to join Ms Otten, the "Good Samaritan", and publicly shame them for being victimized by this crisis? I lost my job in Dec 2008. Despite the fact that I was fortunate enough to take a moonlight business full time and somehow survive, I find it very offensive that other Architects would be so blindly hateful of the unemployed seeing how many of our piers are in that sinking boat. This nasty tone toward the 99% that I'm sure you both belong to is a kind of self loathing hypocrisy laced in the fantasy of being an elitist one day. The elite are ensuring an end to upward mobility and that's half the point of OWS. I have never worked for a 1%er and many of my clients are middle class folks with an unemployed spouse. I'm proud to be the Architect of the 99% and more of us should be too! Good luck fishing from the same 1% pond as everyone else.

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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 28.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-02-2011 03:20 PM
    Now Jesus is an OWSer? Wow. My rule of thumb is that when someone starts claiming Jesus is on their side or Hitler is on the side of those with whom they disagree, the person making the claims has given up the dialog.

    This is your second post claiming the someone is "shaming the victims". I haven't seen it. And now you're claiming blind hatred of the unemployed. I haven't seen that either. You're also claiming "half the point of OWS" is to point out that "the elite are ensuring an end to upward mobility". Your post is the first I've heard that that's part of the OWS' non-existent platform. I'm curious to know what the other half of the non-existent platform is.

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    Sean Catherall, AIA
    Herriman UT
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 29.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-03-2011 06:41 AM
    You're clearly not seeing a lot of things. An Evangelist goes off on how these Occupiers are worthless trash and how they'll never be clients so why should we acknowledge them? Then someone chimes in with 'Amen', I smart off about that choice of wording as we shame the protesters/ unfortunate, and now Jesus is a protester. Nice how you evolved that. I can't wait to see what you come up with next as you defend the people who caused this mess and wonder why talking poorly of the protesters is shaming. Do you seriously think the banks behaved properly, since you think they obeyed the law and it must be the gov's fault for having crappy laws? All we need to do is change the law and no one will break it? Defending the banksters as if they did nothing wrong is shameful. You can't see it that way because your position can mean nothing other than millions of Americans are to blame for getting ripped off. That's shaming the victims. The protesters have the right to speak up and you clearly don't want them to. You want to blame a law passed in 2005, yet CA was already seeing it's crash at that point which alerted the rest of us who got hit in 2007. It must of been that Dem Congress and Nancy Pelosi who took seat in 2007 when it was already an all out crisis, because complete meltdowns of an economy like ours just happens over night.

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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 30.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-06-2011 07:22 PM
    And you're clearly seeing things that aren't there, such as my defense of bankers and OWS' clear and coherent message.

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    Sean Catherall, AIA
    Herriman UT
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 31.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-03-2011 04:42 PM

    I am surprised by some of the responsed which seem somehow to twist or distort recent history in this country with regard to our economy, politics, and the real state of current affairs.  That said, I think this paragraph below sums up my feelings:

    ". . . . the concept of "political disobedience" [OWS] accurately captures this new political paradigm, then the resistance movement needs to occupy Zuccotti Park because levels of social inequality and the number of children in poverty are intolerable - A DREADFUL PROCESS STARTED AFTER 1970 - or, to put it another way, the movement needs to resist partisan politics and worn-out ideologies because the outcomes have become simply unacceptable. The Volcker rule, debt relief for working Americans, a tax on the wealthy - those might help, but they represent no more than a few drops in the bucket of regulations that distribute and redistribute wealth and resources in this country every minute of every day. Ultimately, what matters to the politically disobedient is the kind of society we live in, not a handful of policy demands."

    There is no such thing as a "free market" and social and economic inequality if not checked very soon will lead to the undoing (for lack of a better term) of the United States of America as we know it.
    -------------------------------------------
    Walter Wilson FAIA
    Milwaukee County DPW
    Milwaukee WI
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 32.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 10-31-2011 11:40 AM
    Ms. Otten has jumped to the conclusions of a fearful minority of Americans regarding the Occupy Wall Street movements.  The assumptions of those not engaged has lead to prejudice and bias.  We as professionals should lead and support the constitutional freedoms of All our citizens and not worry about what our clients might do.  Are we more concerned about profitability than a functioning Republic? Here are two great articles on the subject:  I suggest everyone should read these for more insight and maybe go talk to those Occupiers and see for yourself.

    "Our language has not yet caught up with the political phenomenon that is emerging in Zuccotti Park and spreading across the nation, though it is clear that a political paradigm shift is taking place before our very eyes. It's time to begin to name and in naming, to better understand this moment. So let me propose some words: "political disobedience."
    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/occupy-wall-streets-politic?al-disobedience/

    "The movement has also provoked derision. Let's consider the latest Norquist/Limbaugh memes as the protest nears the one-month mark: "
    http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/10/moral-authority-of-occupy-wall-st?reet.html

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    Gregory Sandoval AIA
    Architect
    Rhode May Keller McNamara Architecture
    Albuquerque NM
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 33.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-01-2011 01:52 PM

    Thanks everyone for this discussion with such great energy and multiple perspectives.  Our profession needs open dialogue of this quality to remain viable.  After reading the posts for more than a week, I wanted to add a clarification of one point that is often being repeated.

    An author's statement that they "do not understand" the agenda of the OWS movement is actually an indicator that they have been fooled by the 1%.  We have been taught that arguments not delivered in a prescribed format, with concise bullet points, a defined set of goals and an authors signature at the bottom, are not worthy of consideration.  This is exactly what the 1% wants us to believe (they control the education system, you know).  They want us to go on believing that when arguments fall outside this (their) formula, they are "vague" (read dangerous) and must be disregarded.

    I request that each active member of this forum make a personal effort to follow the evidence and uncover their own understanding of the current sources of injustice in our culture.  Some will believe that we have a professional responsibility to speak or act, and others will not, but "not understanding" cannot be a valid reason for either. 
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    David Ludwig
    Sausalito CA
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13


  • 34.  RE:Re: Should architects support local "Occupy" movements

    Posted 11-02-2011 03:23 PM
    David, OWS' lack of a consistent and articulate message does not imply that those who don't project their own opinions positively on the group are "fooled".

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    Sean Catherall, AIA
    Herriman UT
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    AIA26 San Diego June 10-13